So, just to summarize: the original poster's question was an interesting one, even if, as is often the case with such things, an insufficient amount of information was presented to form much more than questions. What the first part of the thread demonstrated was how a land surveyor could fill in enough of the missing pieces to determine the likely merits of the ideas that the original poster had about how a description in a deed should be constructed.
Several things were demonstrated:
- The language of the description that probably created the boundary in question was from about 1881 or 1882.
- The calls for the bearings of lines contained in that description probably referred to magnetic North, but magnetic North in 1881 or 1882, not 2017.
- The calls for various lines and corners of adjoining lands contained in the deed would require research of the descriptions by which those lands were granted, but probably placed the North and East lines of the parcel formed by the two triangles approximately on the centerlines of certain roads, one that was in existence in 1881 and 1882 and one that probably was relocated by 1883 following the conveyance of the western triangle to the school.
- The pattern of ownership shown on the 1873 atlas map of Warwick Township means that probably the western triangle was a grant senior to the remainder out of which the land of the adjacent subdivision came, but that would need to be confirmed by research.
- The names of landowners shown on the 1873 atlas map of Warwick Township and the depiction of a schoolhouse in place in a position corresponding to the eastern triangle means that the description of the eastern triangle was probably drafted sometime before 1873, and quite likely a decade or more earlier, considering the mention of Emmer Trego and his age as reported to the census in 1870. In other words, the eastern triangle was a grant senior to that of the western triangle.
- The adjacent subdivision plat showed no evidence that the responsible surveyor had recovered any of the corners of the (apparently) senior tract, the western triangle.
- The plat of the subdivision of the land lying to the East of the eastern triangle shows a location for the road indicated as bounding the eastern triangle of the School Parcel on the 1883 atlas map of Warwick Township.
- A construction of the description of the eastern triangle that places its North line on or very near the centerline of the pavement of Harmonyville Road yields a bearing for the hypoteneuse forming the common boundary of the eastern and western triangles that in turn yields a construction of the western triangle that gives bearings consistent with the calls of the description of the western triangle having referred to magnetic North in 1881 and 1882 as the same is estimated from historical observations.
In addition to these facts that are relevant to the original post, we learned a number of things that may be charitably called "tangential" and which are probably more related to the personal psychologies (read: "complexes") of various posters than to anything connected with actual land surveying practice.
TTT
James Fleming, post: 445114, member: 136 wrote: The fact that "negligence" is based on a local standard of care and that in almost thirty years practicing in a very similar area I've never heard of anyone finding a called for stone from the mid 1800's in the road.
We have something here in the Mid-Atlantic states that differentiates us from a lot of the states on the other side of the Mississippi...people. Stones set in roads didn't last (heck stones set in farm fence lines often didn't last): however since most of the properties were occupied by people (rather than scorpions, jackrabbits, and the occasional buzzard) the lines marked by the old stones have been perpetuated by occupation.
I have found plenty of 1870's stones in roads in Oklahoma. Does 20 years make that much difference? Your point about occupation is valid though.
I also found a 1790's stone under a road in TN once, so there probably are some in PA. Sometimes it is better not to find those old stones though..
MightyMoe, post: 445124, member: 700 wrote: At the end of the day the subdivision line is probably going to hold, I would think Help wouldn't like to hear that however, and I can understand her frustration.
But exactly what would cause it to change?
Finding the original stone at the NW corner will quite possibly move the line easterly, finding it across the subdivision line will probably create a court battle if she goes after that land.
Not to be a downer, but fixing the line where it historically has been would be my preference if I owned that parcel.
What would an excavation and court battle actually cost? 20-30k? minimum?
And what would be the decision? I would think the court in PA would rule for the historical position. The boundary that has been established for decades.
And if you find a stone to the east of the subdivision line? She would give up land?
Hey if the landowner wants to get into such a battle, go for it, but be very up-front about all the options, all the ramifications, and all the possibilities for loss.
The cost of excavation would be a few hours of labor.
I can see a situation... Where a "lost" stone is recovered. But, all the area is built up. Roads, houses, strip malls, all based on the wrong stuff. Suddenly, somebody finds the REAL, BONA FIDE stone...
All I'm gonna do, is reference it, and USE the "wrong, but heavily used" location.
It'll just become a part of the record. But, were not moving the town over...
aliquot, post: 446062, member: 2486 wrote: The cost of excavation would be a few hours of labor.
State highway at an intersection with odd shaped geometry. Where I work it would cost close to two grand in labor just for state highway permit processing and preparing a traffic control plan.
James Fleming, post: 446070, member: 136 wrote: State highway at an intersection with odd shaped geometry. Where I work it would cost close to two grand in labor just for state highway permit processing and preparing a traffic control plan.
James I actually looked up the permits required to open excavate public roads in several Pennsylvania Townships. I don't think I found Warwick, but all found were extremely similar in their criteria, as you have described. One thing that jumped out at me (probably because I was associated with the paving business for a number of years) was while most required the typical traffic control, insurance bond, etc.; some required a performance bond. For those unfamiliar with performance bonds on pavement for public thoroughfares they are basically a warranty you provide on the pavement repair for a specified period of time, usually 1 or 2 years. And they are expensive. IF anything happens during that period to your pavement repair the inspecting (owners) powers that be may, at their discretion, require you to "do it all over again". What it basically does is limit the repairing party to paving contractor$ that have established themselves in the area. None of it sounds like a cheap "Easter Egg Hunt".
paden cash, post: 446076, member: 20 wrote: James I actually looked up the permits required to open excavate public roads in several Pennsylvania Townships. I don't think I found Warwick, but all found were extremely similar in their criteria, as you have described. One thing that jumped out at me (probably because I was associated with the paving business for a number of years) was while most required the typical traffic control, insurance bond, etc.; some required a performance bond. For those unfamiliar with performance bonds on pavement for public thoroughfares they are basically a warranty you provide on the pavement repair for a specified period of time, usually 1 or 2 years. And they are expensive. IF anything happens during that period to your pavement repair the inspecting (owners) powers that be may, at their discretion, require you to "do it all over again". What it basically does is limit the repairing party to paving contractor$ that have established themselves in the area. None of it sounds like a cheap "Easter Egg Hunt".
It's best to sub it out.
James Fleming, post: 446070, member: 136 wrote: State highway at an intersection with odd shaped geometry. Where I work it would cost close to two grand in labor just for state highway permit processing and preparing a traffic control plan.
I can understand needing a permit if the road is busy enough that you need to divert traffic or have a flagman, or to set an new monument in the road, but a permit to recover a monument DOT or the county covered up with their road construction is questionable. The monuments were there first.
Luckily Alaska has a law that requires monuments to be protected during road construction. I've dug up many roads in many states and never had a problem. Although there were a few tense moments before I explained to a sherriff or or road commissioner what I was doing and my repair plan, but I have never worked in PA.
Canada got it right in the prairies. They left a two chain gap between sections for roads, so corners are on the ROE line, not the CL.
Some stones are better left unfound. Can't prove it hasn't traveled under a graders blade.
aliquot, post: 446102, member: 2486 wrote: I can understand needing a permit if the road is busy enough that you need to divert traffic or have a flagman, or to set an new monument in the road, but a permit to recover a monument DOT or the county covered up with their road construction is questionable. The monuments were there first.
Luckily Alaska has a law that requires monuments to be protected during road construction. I've dug up many roads in many states and never had a problem. Although there were a few tense moments before I explained to a sherriff or or road commissioner what I was doing and my repair plan, but I have never worked in PA.
Canada got it right in the prairies. They left a two chain gap between sections for roads, so corners are on the ROE line, not the CL.
That law in AK is apparently routinely ignored.
Williwaw, post: 446103, member: 7066 wrote: Some stones are better left unfound. Can't prove it hasn't traveled under a graders blade.
That law in AK is apparently routinely ignored.
They are getting better at it, but the important thing is that it lets you dig up roads without needing a permit or facing repercussions, because any resulting damage is due to their negligence, of course that only applies if you can safely dig it up without causing a traffic hazard.
Williwaw, post: 446103, member: 7066 wrote: Some stones are better left unfound. Can't prove it hasn't traveled under a graders blade.
That law in AK is apparently routinely ignored.
Yes, some stones are better left unfound, but that does not mean you shouldn't look for it, because maybe the next surveyor will, and then there is an even bigger problem. A good clue that a stone has not been disturbed in a PLSS state is that it is still oriented in the way the notes describe it. Unless the road was originally built generations latter the original road builders knew the significance of the stones and usually protected them. A few counties even had county surveyors that would bury the stones deeper in place before the roads were built.
My experience in nearly four decades of digging in county roads with backhoes is about fifty-fifty. On some sections, absolutely nothing is found at any location. In a few rare cases, every one is found. The standard case runs about fifty-fifty, and then only where one would it expect to have had the opportunity to still be undisturbed from day one. A typical dig is about 20 feet by 20 feet by two to three feet deep if there are no utility lines to worry about. On a few rare occasions, the first swipe with the bucket scrapes the stone.
Part of our problem is the common errors we find in both measurement and alignment. A straight line from one section corner through the quarter corner to the next section corner is rare. A five to thirty foot bend off of a straight line is expected and I can point to several that are over 250 feet from that theoretical straight line at midpoint. I have found sections where the first half mile may be vastly different in length than the second half mile when reported to be precisely the same distance.
I will not take a backhoe to a paved road for any client. If the client wants to approach the owner of that paved road and work out a plan of action, that is fine. It has never happened for me.
I have dug many a hole by hand up to two feet deep in a paved road going after bars with a fair amount of supporting documentation, but never for a stone. The State DOT has been known to tear up their own highways with a backhoe to do this, but I know of no surveying firm in this area who has ever done so for a private party's survey.
I have dug for stones on private property with a backhoe a few times over the decades. Normally, those stones will still be partly aboveground and can be found with a diligent search.
Probing would be next to useless, except in river bottom/creek bottom areas with very good survey notes directing us to the stones. I own one farm where I needed to install a new fence along a one-quarter mile stretch immediately upon purchase. We drilled a hole with a drill bit on a jackhammer every rod in order to set steel T posts.. The most soil passed through before hitting bedrock was 14 inches. In several places we started on exposed bedrock. All of my farmland includes surface rocks that make the tillage implements sing and complain. Another problem near apparent corners is that the farmers of old would load up many of those surface rocks that were causing tillage problems in the open field and toss them in the field corners to get them out of the way. With 200 stones of the size you are seeking all in one pile near a fence corner post, you can see the futility in attempting to dub one of them "THE" stone. Another factor is that in this region very, very few of the Government survey stones were marked with notches. Those are incredibly rare. One is more likely to find later set property division stones with something like "80" or "100" or "40" or "CC" or "CS" chiseled into one side.
It is extremely helpful to have a working knowledge of the general success at finding stones in a small geographic area before setting out blindly. A major help along that line is knowing every last resource to consult in the public records in the county where you are working. I gave an example a year or two back with what I labeled a castlenut stone at a center section corner. The only reference found to its existence was on a railroad strip map. Some local counties have those on file in the courthouse for viewing. Many others do not.
aliquot, post: 446105, member: 2486 wrote: They are getting better at it, but the important thing is that it lets you dig up roads without needing a permit or facing repercussions, because any resulting damage is due to their negligence, of course that only applies if you can safely dig it up without causing a traffic hazard.
That 's fine for DOT who can mobilize to block off traffic with their trucks but for a 2 man shop doing utility related work it put us in danger any time we have to excavate in the traveled way. Periodically I'm forced to do it and I've complained at every level and been met with either lip service or utter indifference. If I'm lucky they just buried or paved over the monument out of negligence, but more often than not they've been obliterated with zero attempt to perpetuate the positions. I'd say without a pedigree of the stone in question, it's recovery and perpetuation, given the amount of time that's past, it's existence is a moot and academic point, unless the objective is potentially years of litigation. But then again, I'm not a colonial state surveyor and my opinion and a buck might buy a cup of drip coffee.
I am happy to see some level of congeniality return to this thread as it has been very educational. I do hope the OP was able to derive some useful information before having to duck and cover.
As pointed out above, nearly all of the stones placed around here were for the original Government PLSS survey or a perpetuation thereof set by a county engineer/surveyor in the 19th Century. I'm not sure I've ever looked for stones set for some incredibly little parcel such as the one in Pennsylvania that started this thread. Many of the early private surveys like that will show wood stakes at the corners. I have carried out diligent searches for them where there was any hope whatsoever of their continued existence but have never found one yet. The only wood stake I have ever encountered was set next to a stone at a section corner when a small town was platted from that corner about 1870. We dug in the county road with a backhoe to discover both the stone and the wood stake. The wood stake turned out to be a six-inch diameter circular section of a hedge trim limb. Hedge meaning Osage Orange/Bois d'arc/Bodark. It is very dense and durable. BTW, we drove a one-inch bar between the stone and stake and put the top about two inches lower than the top of the stone, which was the true section corner monument. Follow the signal and you will find the stone at a depth of about 30 inches below the surface. Some would say I was foolish not to set what is our minimum monument ( 1/2" by 24" iron bar ) directly over the center of stone to simplify the work of future surveyors. I will let my corner records, filed with both the State and County, do that job.
Holy Cow, post: 446112, member: 50 wrote: As pointed out above, nearly all of the stones placed around here were for the original Government PLSS survey or a perpetuation thereof set by a county engineer/surveyor in the 19th Century. I'm not sure I've ever looked for stones set for some incredibly little parcel such as the one in Pennsylvania that started this thread. Many of the early private surveys like that will show wood stakes at the corners. I have carried out diligent searches for them where there was any hope whatsoever of their continued existence but have never found one yet. The only wood stake I have ever encountered was set next to a stone at a section corner when a small town was platted from that corner about 1870. We dug in the county road with a backhoe to discover both the stone and the wood stake. The wood stake turned out to be a six-inch diameter circular section of a hedge trim limb. Hedge meaning Osage Orange/Bois d'arc/Bodark. It is very dense and durable. BTW, we drove a one-inch bar between the stone and stake and put the top about two inches lower than the top of the stone, which was the true section corner monument. Follow the signal and you will find the stone at a depth of about 30 inches below the surface. Some would say I was foolish not to set what is our minimum monument ( 1/2" by 24" iron bar ) directly over the center of stone to simplify the work of future surveyors. I will let my corner records, filed with both the State and County, do that job.
Sounds good to me. I probably would have set somerhing more substantial, but you improved the situation by making it magnetically locatable , and the stone is substantial enough. I only complain when people do things like that and then don't leave a record.
I had kind of hoped that there would have been more participation from the Pennsylvania registereds, beyond the minimal 'I've surveyed in that area' or the capitulation to 'that stone is probably lost forever'
We don't have any rocks, here in Harris County, but a number of the registereds, and some of the field crew, have posted pictures of monuments in their area, which range from Gene Kooper's and J.Penry's excellent photo-narratives, to the more hard to discern stereogams of the number four lightly chiseled in a stone.
I'm not sure what those boundary stones in Pennsylvania look like. I suppose I was thinking they were something like the ones they used to monument the state line, or something like the stone in Gene Kooper's avatar, I have no idea.
Holy Cow, post: 446108, member: 50 wrote: With 200 stones of the size you are seeking all in one pile near a fence corner post, you can see the futility in attempting to dub one of them "THE" stone.
I disagree...every rock will have a Strohs can under it, or some form of trash. There will be only one stone with original prairie under it.
:confused:
What is this Strohs of which you speak? Like Serutan is natures spelled backwards, is Strohs shorts spelled backwards? Inquiring minds need to know.
Anyone else here old enough to remember Ted Mack and The Amateur Hour on TV? One of the regular advertisers was Serutan and another was Geritol (One spoonful contains more iron than a pound of calf's liver.)
