A few things like I feel are being lost here as surveyors we are not saying a line deeded at 500' that we measure at 490' is still 500' today it will be noted on the plat that it measures 490'. We have NO mechanism as surveyors to change the deed independent of the property owner. A survey from the 1960's is vastly different from a survey from the 1860's. A good percentage of the deeds in the US are prepared without the help of a surveyor, a fair number of the calls you see in deeds have "things" called out at the end of a course i.e. A road, a creek, a adjoining property, a pipe or rod ect.. sometimes without a distance. A system based only on measurements would seem to lend itself to gaps, overlaps and gores which we as surveyors in the US abhor. This doesn't even get into aliquot part descriptions which have no measurements.
OK, so we go 5 monuments West, and 5 monuments east, and we find that there is a general shortage, of around 1 foot per 500 feet. Now what?
FrancisH, post: 396658, member: 10211 wrote: I once surveyed a parcel dated early 1970/late 1960s. At that time only steel tape & transit (or the thoedolite) was available. When I compared today's output using total station & GPS, line distances were off less than ~20cm.
You seem to forget that if the survey followed basic check procedures - closed travers, direct/reverse observations, etc, errors are reduced.
This also applies to work done 200 years ago if surveyor did his job properly whether he was using a chain/alidade or transit his output should have met precision tolerance.NOW if it was surveyed by someone who does not know what he was doing, then his output would not have met survey tolerance and his plat would be considered wrong. In short he committed a blunder in his measurements.
So if you want to accept his monuments on the ground as being sacred, then you have to accept the fact that his recorded plat is erroneous.
If on the other hand, his boundary computations based on his plat has a polygon that closes properly then it means that his layout is erroneous.Simple as that. One or the other. You can't have both layout & plat as being correct at the same time if his ground positions are off from his plat.
Overall you've got some good criticisms of American surveying that we could learn from. Your responses and questions here show you are thinking about the possibilities.
There was much expedience in how America was surveyed. There are more layers of law at play and yes surveyors are leery of liability. We are not generally well trained in law in the last 100 years.
A big difference in our thinking is that while we agree that a surveyor "should" follow procedure whether now or in the past we know that due to human nature or greed or expedience that sometimes or perhaps often they do or did not.
Hence we check for old blunders not to correct them rather because in our remnants of common law after some years have passed Blunders Become Boundaries and physical occupants gain unwritten rights and woe and liability accrue to the measurement expert surveyor who opines a boundary based on math or technology that tramples on said unwritten rights.
Reliance. Repose. Harmony. Acquiescence. For a good time look up Mortmain.
Gotta go cut firewood. All your questions have answers keep asking.
About one in five tape-transit surveys in my area are exactly as good as the TS. One in five was grandpa and grandson with the short feet.
Another concept: The PLSS was only done to a half mile if that and once that grid was in place everything within a given square mile is as likely to have been laid out by a layperson or carpenter or the landowner themselves as it was by any kind of trained or licensed surveyor. Yet those monuments if supported by the right kind of evidence whether written or physical or parol have as much weight as a modern "licensed" monument.
Firewood. Right. Where has the day gone? Oh that Internet.
OK Dokie, Mr Francis. It's time. Put up, or go home.
Here is some of my recent work. http://geostor-plats.geostor.org/Sevier/21-10-32%20Odom-North.pdf
Post one of yours.
Waiting.....
Waiting.....
And, if you have any problem with the technology, to make and post a PDF, either send it to me, or to a number of the folks here. We are all eager (I assure you) to see your work.
N
FrancisH, post: 396593, member: 10211 wrote: OK,like I said, I am a surveyor and I don't pretend to be a lawyer and as such I measure the land and leave the laws to the lawyer. But don't any lawyer tell me than 1 meter = 1.1 meter anywhere on this earth.
This is the essence of what you seem to refuse to understand. Someone who just measures the land here is called a technician. 90% of what a boundary surveyor does and gets paid to do is understand and interpret that law and apply it the situation in front of them.
All this work has been done for you already so you don't need to understand it. Your relationship with legal system is very similar to the relationship a survery technician has with their supervising land surveyor.
There is room for debate about which system is better, but your claim that we are not doing our jobs clearly shows you do not understand our jobs. If you have any interest in learning there are many on here who would love to help and would love to hear more about your system, but save your criticism for the point in time that you understand what you are criticising.
I wonder if Mr Francis has ever read some of the books mentioned in the other post, I think Kent started it, the one about old surveyors memoirs and written accounts? If not, I suggest he obtain a copy of "Three Dollars A Mile" and read of some of the troubles surveyors faced laying out survey blocks across Texas, and then complain about mis-closures. If he is unable to obtain that book, I present for thought, the field notes for surveys made along the Canadian River in the panhandle of Texas, were dated just a few days off from the Battle of Adobe Walls, which was an Indian and Civilian battle, highly suggesting that survey parties of the day had not only weather, lack of food, shelter, and good water, but hostile indians, and wild animals to be watchful of while surveying as America grew.
In 1973 we followed a survey of 140 acres signed by Steven F Austin that now rests under Lake Fork in East Texas.
Was in flat oak bottom with Lake Fork Creek thru the northwest portion and it measured within a foot of called distances.
I do not remember about the bearings. Remember, this is flat land.
Surveyed in a subdivision on the North Shore of Caddo Lake where the elevation goes from lake level up neary 150ft in elevation rather quickly and then it runs up hill and dale parallel to the lake and I was happy to find monuments within 10ft feet between some block corners.
All this stuff was surveyed with a compass and measured in varas originally.
Standards for surveying relate to what is obtainable today.
What monuments we find from decades and centuries ago are still the corners to the property.
What has been established and use for ownership that long can not be changed.
In some states if they started on one end, by the time they got to the other end many people would not be living the land by paper the new survey is telling them.
Paden, Is this how you entertain yourself in retirement? Start a post and then sit back and watch the discussion. 11 days later and 169 posts. Good job 🙂 Jp
Jp7191, post: 396717, member: 1617 wrote: Paden, Is this how you entertain yourself in retirement? Start a post and then sit back and watch the discussion. 11 days later and 169 posts. Good job 🙂 Jp
sssshhhh......
The survey system you describe (if you truly do understand it) sounds so easy that most of us here could do it in our sleep!
I really doubt it. You might find the error in the field so small that you call it a blunder and try to locate monuments that are more than 1ft away from their deed description.
This is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. This is NOT the primary job of a Professional Surveyor performing a retracement survey in the US. The primary job is to evaluate ALL of the evidence available to determine where the property line was ORIGINALLY placed ON THE GROUND. The accurate measurement of that monument is secondary to determining where it is on the ground.
This is the flaw in your thinking, the deed description is part of the evidence of the boundary when it was placed on the ground. Are you now saying that your current plat DO NOT reflect what you did on the ground?
If accurate measurement of monument is secondary then I would suggest that you go back to using alidade, compass, chain and pacing.
OK, so we go 5 monuments West, and 5 monuments east, and we find that there is a general shortage, of around 1 foot per 500 feet. Now what?
you keep on going West, East, North, South or you are too tired to do your job?
FrancisH, post: 396246, member: 10211 wrote: No I did not say that, I said you either layout on the ground the 10 acre lot or 10 1-acre lots OR you change the deed description to reflect 10 lots 0.90 acre each.
"...OR you change the deed description... " Not here you don't. AS a State licensed surveyor I do not have the authority to do that - only a court can do that.
OK Dokie, Mr Francis. It's time. Put up, or go home.
Here is some of my recent work. http://geostor-plats.geostor.org/Sevier/21-10-32%20Odom-North.pdf&apos ;"> http://geostor-plats.geostor.org/Sevier/21-10-32 Odom-North.pdf
.
I read your report and most of your corner report states - "Further title could be consulted, as well as history"
I thought that was your job over there in the US, to consult HISTORY? Am I right to understand that you did not do research into the HISTORY of the parcel and you passed again your findings to the next surveyor to do the research?
"I am persuaded that they are part of a farming operation, or deer stand, so I have not held it. I reference it but I do not believe it should be held."
Nate, is this a wishy-washy statement? So what is your conclusion then?It seems that you can't decide on your findings.
"This position should be further verified with local deeds, and local history."
Again, did you really do any research on your much mentioned HISTORY?
So who are you asking to to "Further research with local deeds & local history"?
Nate, if I was the owner Odom, I would tell you this:
"Dear Nate, I have in my wallet your check payment. I would like to hand it over to you but I think I should make further research on your history as a surveyor. It seems like I would like to pay you but further research should be made with the local registry on your status as a surveyor before I hand over your check."
And, where pray tell is some of your work?
FrancisH,
I can't speak for the nuances of the cadaster and legal principals of boundary surveying in Indonesia or Singapore, but based on your words here you clearly don't have a grasp on the laws, systems and principals in place in the U.S. which are intended to preserve long established and acknowledged land boundaries, which may not be perfect in their measurements and/or descriptions. It's a very simplistic black or white, wrong or right approach you're taking, which is flawed in the sense that in our system, measurements take a back seat to long established and accepted monuments and boundaries, regardless of how imperfect they may be. I suggest you take a little time to read the following to gain some small measure of knowledge, rather than making a point here of demonstrating your lack of it.
http://www.alaskapls.org/standards/cooley.pdf
Teri makasi
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
And, where pray tell is some of your work?
I don't publish my plats on the internet because they belong to my client. I don't think you have the right to publish the plat of Mrs. Odom here too Nate. Your findings (or in this case lack of it) could be read by her neighbor and any overlaps onto his property could be used by him against your client. Don't you have an NDA clause in your quotes to your clients? Very unprofessional to publish even if it's your work on the internet Nate. It was created a few days ago so I doubt it if it was already recorded and made public right?Should you have asked your client first?
In some states if they started on one end, by the time they got to the other end many people would not be living the land by paper the new survey is telling them.
So my question is this,,,,why did they hire you in the first place?If their existing fences are their true boundary lines then what did they pay you for?
"...OR you change the deed description... " Not here you don't. AS a State licensed surveyor I do not have the authority to do that - only a court can do that.
Yes, I understand that part, you can't change the description. But your research work into the history of the parcel is based partly on recorded plats right? So you are using descriptions that are erroneous to recover monuments that do not fit those descriptions. Am I missing some common sense on the other side of the globe?
Way I see it, why the need to hire a surveyor?Just call your neighbor for a few bottles of beer & use the bottle caps to mark your adjacent corners while under intoxication. And draw the plat as well while into your 4th bottle since what Nate just drew as an example has logic written that seems made by someone under alcohol influence.