Nate The Surveyor, post: 396187, member: 291 wrote: Roger,
I don't believe title co's should be writing descriptions.
Without permission from a surveyor!
Title officers don't know boundaries. Or wait,.....Is that saying that Title Officers "know no boundaries"? 😉
Duane Frymire, post: 396305, member: 110 wrote: Frances has a valid point that things should be updated and modernized. But the local government authorities in charge in most areas of the U. S. simply don't have the resources to pay for it, nor the authority (or maybe political will) to mandate the extra work/fees required from individual landowners in their contracts with private surveyors. It's notable that part of the Singapore program implemented very specific requirements/training in order to perform surveys there, so everyone is working to the same standards. In the U.S. we have a real hodgepodge of differing requirements and resulting differing opinions
I agree and that is what I was trying to say in post 52 about our modern subdivisions being a modern land net system. It is the older subdivided and deeded parts of town that are very difficult and getting more difficult as time passes. It seems that we (the people, and professionals) need to come up with a system that works better than what we have now. I think it is evident from the discussions on this board that the system in place does not work well when the final answer is only answered by an appeals judge. My 2 cents, Jp
Tom Adams, post: 396347, member: 7285 wrote: Title officers don't know boundaries. Or wait,.....Is that saying that Title Officers "know no boundaries"? 😉
Seems like we're playing a game of telephone. My only comment is that if you are going to go around rewriting legals for some purpose, I would look to get the blessing of the Title Co. that's my opinion.
What you are describing is the work of an
FrancisH, post: 396235, member: 10211 wrote: I am not claiming that I know your laws. I am saying is that what you do in boundary survey is not the work of a surveyor. A surveyor works within certain precision boundaries. Anything outside of those accepted boundaries are corrected & revised until they meet the set boundaries. This is reason why our equipment have increased in measurement accuracy that now are within the mm level. A 1 acre lot should be 1 acre in both ground & plan. Having a 1 acre are on plan and 1.1 acre or 0.90 acre on ground is ridiculous, to the owner, seller, surveyor & government who certify to its correctness. Or do you think slope area is greater than horizontal area?
Because the work to revise all these surveys done 200 years or so ago is so enormous, no one wants to start.
If a gas station sold you only 0.90 gallon for every gallon of gas that you bought, you would have a class suit against that gas station faster than you could burn that 1 gallon of gas right? Now that's just for 0.10 gallon of missing gas.
What you are describing is the work of an engineer, not a land surveyor. If your description of land surveying in your country is correct it seems like surveyors there have much less responsibilty than they do here.
roger_LS, post: 396332, member: 11550 wrote: Personally, I think the rectangular system sucks. I'd prefer someone come in and replace them with metes and bounds...of course this will never happen. Someone thought it would be so friggin' cool if all these properties were related to an initial point then laid out in these neat little squares. In reality it can be a hallacious burden for the guy who's now got a small little parcel described by aliquot parts where his property has never been established or the section has not been broken down. Maybe I'm just jealous, I'd love to work on them more, but in this steep mountainous and forested area around here the survey costs become so prohibitive that most can't afford a proper survey.
It's much worse in the non PLSS states. The cost for a PROPER survey is so prohibitive they are very rarely done.
Jp7191, post: 396350, member: 1617 wrote: I agree and that is what I was trying to say in post 52 about our modern subdivisions being a modern land net system. It is the older subdivided and deeded parts of town that are very difficult and getting more difficult as time passes. It seems that we (the people, and professionals) need to come up with a system that works better than what we have now. I think it is evident from the discussions on this board that the system in place does not work well when the final answer is only answered by an appeals judge. My 2 cents, Jp
Modern subdivisions are just as likely to have similar discrepancies as older, however now it is most likely due to the unscrupulous surveyor not putting forth the effort required to do it correctly or "making things fit" for the benefit of the client.
Just retraced a lot the other day that was all out of wack on a subdivsion done in the last 10 years. I have followed this surveyor before and have always found his surveys lacking integrity.
What you are describing is the work of an engineer, not a land surveyor. If your description of land surveying in your country is correct it seems like surveyors there have much less responsibility than they do here.
Not sure what the point is, but here if your survey layout is erroneous by a margin that is thicker than the thickness of a dividing wall (~20 cm), adjacent owner can haul the land owner (my client), the contractor (wall builder) and me to court for trespassing and illegal occupation. How's that for responsibility?
Sounds like strict liability for erroneous layout.
FrancisH, post: 396398, member: 10211 wrote: Not sure what the point is, but here if your survey layout is erroneous by a margin that is thicker than the thickness of a dividing wall (~20 cm), adjacent owner can haul the land owner (my client), the contractor (wall builder) and me to court for trespassing and illegal occupation. How's that for responsibility?
As someone mentioned before the laws must be quite different where you practice, and presumably must be considered, where I practice if a monument was set in good faith (in my opinion and experience), it must be a significant weighting factor of your survey, as surveyors we serve the public. Example, if I subdivide a large lot under common ownership and they rely on my positions of the sidelines, as placed on the ground, convey deeds and move forward, what makes the next guy (surveyor) more adept to determine what the parties of the original conveyance relied on.
As someone mentioned before the laws must be quite different where you practice, and presumably must be considered, where I practice if a monument was set in good faith (in my opinion and experience), it must be a significant weighting factor of your survey, as surveyors we serve the public.
everyone has good faith until he commits a mistake. a lot of people are in jail, lost their property, all in the name of good faith.
Example, if I subdivide a large lot under common ownership and they rely on my positions of the sidelines, as placed on the ground, convey deeds and move forward, what makes the next guy (surveyor) more adept to determine what the parties of the original conveyance relied on.
surveyors in US must have such long lives since everyone after him need to rely on how he did his survey.
FrancisH, post: 396407, member: 10211 wrote: everyone has good faith until he commits a mistake. a lot of people are in jail, lost their property, all in the name of good faith.
surveyors in US must have such long lives since everyone after him need to rely on how he did his survey.
So to recap, each property surveyed going forward has a more precise boundary, each predecessor was wrong. Question, why the hell are we employed, seems folks are wasting their money based on that line of thought.
FrancisH, post: 396407, member: 10211 wrote: everyone has good faith until he commits a mistake. a lot of people are in jail, lost their property, all in the name of good faith.
surveyors in US must have such long lives since everyone after him need to rely on how he did his survey.
You must be a lot of fun at a party.
How can someone go to jail for acting in good faith? Being guilty of a crime requires bad faith by definition.
When I was 20 I thought every question was yes or no, black and white, nothing in between too.
So to recap, each property surveyed going forward has a more precise boundary, each predecessor was wrong. Question, why the hell are we employed, seems folks are wasting their money based on that line of thought.
simply put, you are responsible for your work, you can't keep on blaming the previous surveyor for present lot boundary. if you accepted the work, then you had better know what you are doing. blaming the previous surveyor for something that is out of measurement THEN not correcting it makes you liable for your work. can you imagine if this was done in the medical profession? no one would treat you because some other doctor made a wrong analysis and every doctor in town will say that was the right thing to do even if they see you are dying.
How can someone go to jail for acting in good faith? Being guilty of a crime requires bad faith by definition.
When I was 20 I thought every question was yes or no, black and white, nothing in between too.
good faith is not determined by you, it is determined by other people,jury,judge. if everyone used the good faith defense, does it automatically mean he is innocent?
that's why I said there are a lot of people in jail using the good faith defense. not everyone can use that and get away free.
FrancisH, post: 396412, member: 10211 wrote: ..that's why I said there are a lot of people in jail using the good faith defense. not everyone can use that and get away free.
Good faith, or in Latin, bona fide is not just a term in the United States we throw around to defend ourselves. Our land laws provide a claimant bona fide rights when in comes to defending boundaries that may or may not bear modern day accuracy standards. If fact this statute may be one of the single most powerful components of our complex surveying methods that place far more weight on an existing monument than the mere measurements that tie said monument to any adjoiner or superior control.
Our land laws provide a claimantbona fide rights when in comes to defending boundaries that may or may not bear modern day accuracy standards.
you seem to forget that your "bona fide rights" applies to the adjoining land owners too? a wrong boundary line/monument on one side affects the other side's claimant too. you gain, the other lose and vice versa.
FrancisH, post: 396414, member: 10211 wrote: you seem to forget that your "bona fide rights" applies to the adjoining land owners too? a wrong boundary line/monument on one side affects the other side's claimant too. you gain, the other lose and vice versa.
You know Francis I don't know if it's my blood sugar, age, or if you're got a sore spot for our American surveying system, but you seem awfully critical of things you apparently know little about. You almost seem angered by some of the replies posted here.
If I shared your exhibited sentiment for our surveying laws and methods here; I would celebrate the distance I was from such archaic and backwards processes.
You know Francis I don't know if it's my blood sugar, age, or if you're got a sore spot for our American surveying system, but you seem awfully critical of things you apparently know little about. You almost seem angered by some of the replies posted here.
I am really more amused by your hiding behind your laws your ineptitude in surveying work. you always argue that monuments are sacred and their positions take precedence over deed. but how do you know if those monuments were not moved?no floods, no erosion, no earthquake in past 200 years? how do you know if those monuments were not placed there by some client that wanted to increase his land area? you removed a monument and place it 10 feet away, after a few days & rain you could not even tell if the monument was disturbed or not. even the passing of a bulldozer near a monument would push that monument away from it's position ever so slightly. even survey control markers established by the government here are re-checked every 10 years or so.
the answer my friend is you can't be sure of those incidents I mentioned. so the assumption that the monuments are in their present spot for past 200 years also has same weight as a case where it was moved intentionally a year ago or by nature.
since the surveyor who made that survey 200 years is no longer around, you have to rely on what was written by him on the plat and retrace it.if you rely on his monument position so heavily, why can't you also place same weight on the measurements on his plat?
FrancisH, post: 396417, member: 10211 wrote: I am really more amused by your hiding behind your laws your ineptitude in surveying work. you always argue that monuments are sacred and their positions take precedence over deed. but how do you know if those monuments were not moved?no floods, no erosion, no earthquake in past 200 years? how do you know if those monuments were not placed there by some client that wanted to increase his land area? you removed a monument and place it 10 feet away, after a few days & rain you could not even tell if the monument was disturbed or not. even the passing of a bulldozer near a monument would push that monument away from it's position ever so slightly. even survey control markers established by the government here are re-checked every 10 years or so.
the answer my friend is you can't be sure of those incidents I mentioned. so the assumption that the monuments are in their present spot for past 200 years also has same weight as a case where it was moved intentionally a year ago or by nature.since the surveyor who made that survey 200 years is no longer around, you have to rely on what was written by him on the plat and retrace it.if you rely on his monument position so heavily, why can't you also place same weight on the measurements on his plat?
I'm glad you're amused by us. If you're ever in the US stop by and I'll give you some explicit instructions about "hiding" things.
FrancisH, post: 396417, member: 10211 wrote: I am really more amused by your hiding behind your laws your ineptitude in surveying work. you always argue that monuments are sacred and their positions take precedence over deed. but how do you know if those monuments were not moved?no floods, no erosion, no earthquake in past 200 years? how do you know if those monuments were not placed there by some client that wanted to increase his land area? you removed a monument and place it 10 feet away, after a few days & rain you could not even tell if the monument was disturbed or not. even the passing of a bulldozer near a monument would push that monument away from it's position ever so slightly. even survey control markers established by the government here are re-checked every 10 years or so.
the answer my friend is you can't be sure of those incidents I mentioned. so the assumption that the monuments are in their present spot for past 200 years also has same weight as a case where it was moved intentionally a year ago or by nature.since the surveyor who made that survey 200 years is no longer around, you have to rely on what was written by him on the plat and retrace it.if you rely on his monument position so heavily, why can't you also place same weight on the measurements on his plat?
We check the monuments in relation to each other. In the old days we used a list of inverses between monuments to decide which ones were stable and which ones had moved. Nowadays we use stuff like Primacode Transform, or some other transformation to see if the stuff on the ground today fits the deed from back then. A monument that has been moved or disturbed is quite obvious with that kind of analysis.
It's not uncommon here to find an older subdivision that was laid out with a steel tape, not corrected for temperature or tension, and their 100 feet could easily be 99.9 feet or even 99.0 feet. If they went 1320' north from where they started, could be they are 13.2' short at the north end of the subdivision. However since the pin has been in the ground many years and the surrounding property owners have relied upon it, it "is" the boundary. The courts will not look favorably upon the surveyor who wants to move every corner along that line, based on more precise measurements, to match the deed. It would be nice if the retracing surveyor recorded something with some modern measurements to clue in the next guy. Some do, some don't. Depends on how big the discrepancy is. In my state, the threshold for recording something different is 0.5', meaning, if I find the monument as described by the deed (or a perpetuating survey) and it is not more than half a foot from my calculation, I can accept it and not change the record. My preference is to report both record and measured.
Much surveying in the past was done for convenience rather than accuracy. In 1910, a landowner wants to subdivide so they can sell lots and make money. A buyer wants their property marked so they can get the house built before winter. If they wait for perfection, they lose time and money. Along come retired surveyor grandpa and his ten year old grandson and they lay it out with a chain. Neither one of them can pull the chain tight enough, so now we have lots that are 100 feet wide on paper and 99 feet wide on the ground. Houses are built. Fences are built. Roads are built. In 2016, along comes FrancisH with his RTN-RTK-VRS GPS and says, "Hey, none of this stuff matches the deed, let me re-stake this whole neighborhood, you guys have to move your houses, your walls, your fences, your roads, your sewer lines, everything!" Sounds like they do that in Singapore. We generally don't here. Has to do with the difference in laws and the history of those laws. Hope this helps your understanding.
