paden cash, post: 399514, member: 20 wrote: FrancisH and his vocal disdain for our process of boundary location perpetuation (and land tenure in general) is nothing more than an indication of his ignorance. His insipid rhetoric is an indication of his personality, and I tend to avoid insipid idiots if I can.
Judging his demeanor from his posts, I bet his dog doesn't even like him.....if he hasn't already eaten the poor thing.
I've never really been a dog person but for some reason I can't figure out dogs really like me.
My son has a little dachshund who just goes into spasms of rapture every time I walk in their apartment. I theorize he's excitedly thinking, "It's the big ape that gives me treats he hasn't given me a treat the last 15 visits but maybe this is the visit where he will give me a treat so I'm so excited treat treat treat!"
Dave Karoly, post: 399548, member: 94 wrote: ....but for some reason I can't figure out dogs really like me...
Although I am very much a dog person...and the admiration constantly shown me by my dogs instantly elevates my spirits...other people's dogs seem to like me also, even though I fall into the "stranger" category, and I have a theory about that.
A lot of dogs seem overly interested in my boots...(as opposed to other parts of my anatomy that also draw their attention). My theory is dogs think surveyors are probably the baddest mammer-jammers that walk the earth because of all the "territory" on our boots that is easily mapped in their nostrils. Canines, like most carnivores, are very territorial. It's against doggy protocol to venture into other dogs' territories unless you're looking for a fight. We stomp all over the entire world with fearless abandon. Naturally our dogs see us as the Lord High Mocus Grand Poobah of creatures...we fear nothing. No wonder they're so nice to us...;)
I love that theory Paden. Thanks!
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paden cash, post: 399554, member: 20 wrote: dogs seem overly interested in my boots...
I think you might of stepped in dog sh!t; I do it all the time and dogs sniff my boots too...
Hang on guys. Be kind.
Francis is right. It is wacky and confusing, especially to the geneal public.
.
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but tilting at windmills does not work often
A system that has merit in a fully urbanized and densly populated city state may not work so well in the wide open spaces of America.
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. They just crap on the board, then strut around like they've won. 🙂
BK9196, post: 399450, member: 12217 wrote: Francis H is extremely narrow minded, I've appreciated his comments in the respect that they triggered me to review a few things regarding his jurisdiction of practice, I still have to ask, when Scotty beams us all up and provides us with the tech to measure to the 10 thousandth, will the property owners be required to obtain yet another survey, seems to me that this is the mentality, or practice that debunks our fields legitimacy, regardless of nation of practice.
We've all surveyed behind guys like Mr. Heen; they find 3 monuments that fit within their tolerance and slap a deed on the ground. Somebody else does the same thing on the other side; and Dougie is stuck in the middle cleaning up the mess from the gaps and over laps, these 2 clowns created, because the 6 mons didn't fit.
Edit: Wow! #542
[SARCASM]Thanks Paden; for starting this one...[/SARCASM]
:p
It's a good thread to read. (I'm glad I read it as it progressed, otherwise it would take some time). You may need to be able to explain these concepts to someone one day who thinks exactly like Mr. Heen. And it may be to someone who matters; whether it be to a client, a County Checker who thinks they can tell you what to do, or a GIS expert who is attempting to "reject" your survey, an Engineer who "tells surveyors what to do", or another position of power. Name-calling doesn't cut it in many situations, and definitely doesn't change anyone's mind.
(As to Mr. Heen, he seems a good, intelligent human but he just can't help but to resort to name-calling when others don't see things his way. Almost like a political argument that no one can ever win if they don't try to listen in the eyes of the other guy.)
[INDENT]
If we toss out the idea of holding original monuments, because it is an old law, do we also toss out the laws relating to junior/senior rights because it is old?
there is such a word in legal parlance - "Superseded" . laws are meant to be changes, amended, revised.
Now we are really screwing things up with our new perfect measurements! And supporting the insurance and litigation industries, all because we can measure better today than in years past.
so what you are saying is this- you know there is something wrong with your so called "surveying" practices but are too afraid of lawyers and litigation to faithfully carry out your professional job?
If we were to go back and start surveying today every parcel like the way that you mention there are parts of the country that would be in complete upheaval and revolt. Surveyors and land owners would be killed by their neighbors.
so in short you are all a bunch of whining chickens? afraid to do your job properly?you seem to forget that lands are adjacent to each other, an error in one boundary is either a gain/loss in another. it' a giant jigsaw puzzle. you can't have more pieces than what is needed to fit the puzzle.[/INDENT]
We've all surveyed behind guys like Mr. Heen; they find 3 monuments that fit within their tolerance and slap a deed on the ground. Somebody else does the same thing on the other side; and Dougie is stuck in the middle cleaning up the mess from the gaps and over laps, these 2 clowns created, because the 6 mons didn't fit.
you can't divide the pie more than what the dough contains. not everyone can do the miracle of the bread & fishes these days.
A system that has merit in a fully urbanized and densly populated city state may not work so well in the wide open spaces of America.
so can you tell me what is the threshold area for a Singapore system is in the US?
FrancisH, post: 399633, member: 10211 wrote: ...so in short you are all a bunch of whining chickens? afraid to do your job properly?
The US has 12,700 times the land area of Singapore and only 58 times the population. The job of doing this grand resurvey you propose would be a massive burden on the whole society and the benefit would be minimal, at best.
FrancisH, post: 399633, member: 10211 wrote: ..you seem to forget that lands are adjacent to each other, an error in one boundary is either a gain/loss in another.
This is where you are fundamentally wrong. There is no error in a monumented boundary. The boundaries are where they are according to the monuments placed by the expert measurers of times past - monuments the landowners can see and touch - and not according to where some expert measurer of today might place them.
FrancisH you seemed to have cherry-picked through my response. I was trying to enlighten you as to why our laws are what they are. It has nothing to do with fear. Indonesia and Singapore obviously have a very different legal system and precedent set up than what the USA has. It is what it is though. We have the laws that the court has handed down for hundreds of years and our job is to apply these laws and principles. Surveyors enlighten attorneys and judges frequently to principles to which they do not fully understand, again there is no "fear" as you state.
Again, what do we do with all of our roads? Move them because some surveyor can measure better than another?
I'll accept that you should never survey in America and I will keep my butt out of Singapore.
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FrancisH, post: 399635, member: 10211 wrote: so can you tell me what is the threshold area for a Singapore system is in the US?
I cannot. I practice, in a lot of densely populated cities of the US the placement of boundary monuments is heavily dependent on measurments from remote control monuments. In the great majority of those cases we find that the measurements made by the surveyors of long ago closely agree with measurements we make today.
The US has 12,700 times the land area of Singapore and only 58 times the population. The job of doing this grand resurvey you propose would be a massive burden on the whole society and the benefit would be minimal, at best.
Let me pick at your logic then, you mean to say, all of the US surveyors today using their robot TS & mm RTK GPS & Lidar Scanners could not do what a bunch of local hicks did 200 years ago using an alidade & chain?
I cannot. I practice, in a lot of densely populated cities of the US the placement of boundary monuments is heavily dependent on measurments from remote control monuments. In the great majority of those cases we find that the measurements made by the surveyors of long ago closely agree with measurements we make today.
You cannot? And yet you continue to believe that the cm accurate Singapore system is not applicable to the vast US territory?
To be honest, 99% of all boundary surveying jobs cover less than 100 acres? So why are you thinking you need to do the entire US mainland + Alaska & Pacific Hawaii by your lonesome?
Francis,
You continue to miss the point (pun intended). The physical marking of a property corner which has been relied upon for the requisite amount of time is the corner as pronounced by our statutes. Adjacent owners are held - under the law - to have acquiesced to its location, and are presumed to have waived their rights to dispute its position. Appellate courts decide on these issues and publish those opinions for our benefit.
When we retrace prior surveys, yes, we measure more precisely - but to the place where it has always been.
Of course, as you point out, misplacement of those monuments and other nefarious acts can be shown by a preponderance of evidence. It does happen on occasion, and I don't see the profession as being afraid of litigation. To the contrary, found monuments control, and potential alternative locations are considered and either ruled out, or analyzed in context. To do otherwise would indeed invite litigation.
FrancisH, post: 399646, member: 10211 wrote: So why are you thinking you need to do the entire US mainland + Alaska & Pacific Hawaii by your lonesome?
Now you are just being obtuse. I'm out.
FrancisH you seemed to have cherry-picked through my response. I was trying to enlighten you as to why our laws are what they are. It has nothing to do with fear. Indonesia and Singapore obviously have a very different legal system and precedent set up than what the USA has.
I am not sure if you realize that the legal system relies on expertise from professionals? all legalities of the laws are based on professional opinions. if a surveyor or a surveying group would render to the court their expert advise I am sure they would be heeded. if a surveyor tells the court that 100ft on the deed is equal to 90ft on the ground is absurd or defies logic, I am sure the judge would concede to that fact or be the laughing stock of the surveying community.
