I am having a conversation with a potential client who wants to rebuild a garage on an existing foundation. The town wants to know the measurement from the foundation to a nearby brook.
It is possible that the client??s garage project will not require a Request for Determination of Applicability under the Wetlands Protection Act if the project is not 200 feet or more from the brook. The town would like the client to hire a surveyor to make the measurements and the client contacted me.
If I take a preliminary look at the town??s GIS database I can easily see that there is no way there can be 200 feet between the brook and the project. Looking through the database there are many layers of information and even some historic aerial photographs that show the old structure.
Further the client??s deed indicates there was a survey to determine the boundary long ago. Each course is described as a bearing to the nearest minute of arc (implying a transit was used) and distances are to the hundredth of a foot with some being to the tenth of one foot. The description is also very precise and closes to within one foot.
I presented a plot of the deed superimposed on the town??s GIS and it shows that the project would be approximately 120 feet from the brook. Even with resolution errors there is no way the project would be 200 or greater from the brook and the town needs to advise what erosion control measures need to be taken and either let the client build the garage or deny it.
I would like to spare my client from what I believe to be the unnecessary expense of a survey to make this determination. I also think the town should be able to use their own software tools, and that using the GIS, in terms of this project is more than adequate for that determination.
Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
The city may or may not accept anything from you unless you sign, stamp and swear to defend said client against wrongful actions or some such wording.?ÿ Red tape exists to protect ourselves from ourselves.?ÿ The city doesn't care what it costs the client just as long as they have something to put in their file and someone to blame if problems ever arise.
I can't count the number of times I have prepared an elevation certificate or LOMA for a site that is very clearly NOT below the official BFE.?ÿ A recent one is eleven feet higher than the magic number.?ÿ FEMA isn't going to accept anything other than the official form signed and stamped to transfer any liability to me instead of them.
He wants to build the garage.?ÿ Find out what the town requires. Give him a number.?ÿ He'll tell you if it's to much.
Oh, the irony. With all the time we spent around here harping about how GIS stands for "Get it Surveyed", now we have complaint that the city won't just accept that the GIS is correct. Sometimes you just can't win for losing.?ÿ?ÿ
What does the city want??ÿ A site plan?
Just to clarify my original post, there is a concrete foundation from a previous structure on the site. The client wants to rebuild it for a garage. The town wants a 200 feet minimum buffer from a brook that flows on the property.
After looking at the town's GIS database, which I think they could easily do themselves, I see that the garage would be more like 100 feet from the brook. Even with the inherent errors in the GIS database that are bound to occur because of the compilation of maps with varying scales and accuracy it is apparent that the project will require review by the Conservation Commission.
It is simply a question of whether a distance is 200 feet or not. In this case I would be willing to say assuredly that it is not and the town should possess the minimum capability to determine that as well. Otherwise we may expect that every measurement made needs to be by a licensed surveyor.?ÿ
Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
GIS stands for Geographic Information System. It is a little more nuanced than what you imply. The town did not bring up the subject at all. They are suggesting that my client hire a surveyor to measure a distance from an existing concrete foundation to a brook and to determine if it is more than 200 feet. Do you really think that is necessarily a surveyor's responsibility??ÿ
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Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
They want to know if the concrete foundation is 200 feet or more from a brook on the property. It is not a site plan. Just a question to determine the applicability of their wetland protection bylaw.
Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
I'm curious what town has a 200' buffer zone to a wetland?
Or is this a Rivers Act question?
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I helped someone get a variance by assembling screen shots of distances measured off the local GIS.?ÿ?ÿ
What is preventing you from writing a brief report that states the garage is within 200' of the brook?
Won't you eventually have to locate the brook as part of the permit application anyway?
That is what I did. I don't know about the permit application yet, but I sent the client to the town with a map I made from the GIS. When I tried to post the map it failed, but you get the idea. Thank you.
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Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
Thank you. I did prepare a map and noted the source of the information is the town's GIS. It is signed, sealed and delivered. Let's see what happens.
Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.
@holy-cow we had a client that built a house that sat up on top of the highest point within a few miles. However since it was located near a draw and shown on the FIRM map to be within the flood hazard area (Zone A, no BFE.) FEMA wanted us to do a full study of the draw in order for them to remove the house from the flood zone. My letter of reply to them was that if this house flooded then the entire town nearest to him would be 5' underwater and none of that town is shown to be in a flood zone. Received a letter back from them several weeks later stating the house had been removed.
If it were my pad, and I measured it myself, I'd get 201.3 feet.
I've done a number of similar types of surveys.
Unless the garage is tight against one they don't need property lines. Simply a drawing showing the distance from the garage foundation to the edge of brook. I've done them with RTK or a tape.
The edge of a stream isn't something that can be measured exactly anyway. There are any number of alphabet agencies that require these measurements. And, no it shouldn't need to be a surveyor. The builder could measure to the brook.?ÿ
Usually the people I do those for are checking off items on their list and it's a task for me as I do other things.?ÿ
The other question would be why not call the garage a rebuild and try and grandfather it in?
It's fallen into disrepair and now it's getting a facelift.?ÿ
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It can be argued that the critical distance from the point of concern to the stream is the flow path of runoff from that point to the stream bank. I have dealt with separation distances in the past and besides the flowpath length one has to also consider the surface cover along that path.
As far as separation distances I recall cases involving alcohol sales being distanced from a school. The Court accepted that it was not as the bird flies but from the front entrance point at the sidewalk, along the sidewalk to the nearest entrance point on the sidewalk to the sales point.
Therefore one has to study not only surface flow, but any shortcuts or possibly diversions created by a storm sewer system. Besides since the reconstruction is on an existing foundation, it is not necessary to disturb any land and the permit process may not even be applicable.
I no longer like to deal with SESC plans because of the irony of having to disturb additional land to minimize the disturbance of land. Makes little sense and is just not fun or funny.
Compare this to a zoning setback and building the garage makes no change in the existing encroachment. The irony is that nothing prevents someone from parking a vehicle on the concrete slab, same impact. One is also allowed to build an open structure within a flood plain that does not block the flow of water. So build a carport, once that roof is blocking the aerial imagery photo from ever seeing if sidewalls where added by persons unknown.
One might also look for a description of a garage within that particular law. Do they mean an auto repair shop or gas station? Typically a "garage" is an allowable accessory to a dwelling, so if a dwelling can be within 200' so can an "enclosed vehicle parking structure".
Paul in PA, PA, PLS
I have a bit of Zone A in one corner of my property.?ÿ If everything below that elevation in the county were to flood there might be 10 percent of the county left dry and the two largest cities would be under more than 100 feet of water.?ÿ Upland flood zones are based on water detention by obstructions rather than water rising from a flood river.
But, I understand your situation.?ÿ A friend's house sets on a tall bluff overlooking a river.?ÿ The ownership of the tract extends to the center of the river.?ÿ They had to prove to FEMA their house would not flood even though the nearby city would be about 40 to?ÿ feet under water if the river could put water in their yard.
@holy-cow?ÿ ?ÿYep, I fought long and hard to keep from preparing Elevation Certificates for buildings nowhere near a Flood Zone and nowhere near a Base Flood Elevation. But I have succumbed. If the County demands an Elev Cert for a Zone X building 20 feet above the BFE and the client is willing to pay $500 to keep the project moving.?ÿ Here's your sign.
Gee. Thanks for that. I always wondered what GIS stands for.
Measuring the distance from building to the stream shouldn't be the toughest job you do today. Go out there with a rag tape and measure. Go back to your office a write a letter. Stamp it. Sign it. Send it. Bill what it's worth.?ÿ