I get that a bunch. I give a price for the entire boundary survey including marking/staking only the line or lines where the fences will be. Every now and then it can be less than the entire boundary price. It depends.?ÿ

"Fence line" survey or Boundary survey??ÿ?ÿ

In Florida there is no such thing as a Fence line survey. I would never subject myself to the liability of surveying one line only. To limit your exposure to litigation and possible Board disciplinary procedures,?ÿ I would only perform a simple boundary of the whole parcel to ensure your corners haven't been tampered with.

There are quite a few on here that will vehemently disagree with my opinion but remember I am only speaking about how it goes in Florida, not anywhere else.?ÿ ??ÿ

You survey whatever amount of property monuments to where you are proud to place your name to it and satisfy your BOR regulations.

Yes, I do that all the time, just did a survey for one line common to three owners to determine if the common access road was in the existing easement, also did a "fence" survey between two land owners. Of course it depends, you may need to figure out an entire block or an entire section before you can do one line.?ÿ

Today we are surveying a line between two landowners, that line is between two GLO caps marking resurvey tracts. If the caps are there and they are original undisturbed then the survey is good as far as I'm concerned. I'm not surveying the entire ranch. If I told them I needed to they would find another surveyor, and they should.?ÿ

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Posted by: Adam
"I get that a bunch. I give a price for the entire boundary survey including marking/staking only the line or lines where the fences will be. Every now and then it can be less than the entire boundary price. It depends. "

Thanks Adam.?ÿ ?ÿI appreciate your input and that you are also located in NC is a plus!

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Posted by: FL/GA PLS

"In Florida there is no such thing as a Fence line survey. I would never subject myself to the liability of surveying one line only"

I agree FL/GA.?ÿ It's crazy that I hear others talk in terms of just locating that one line.?ÿ Just seems suspect to me.

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Posted by: A Harris

"You survey whatever amount of property monuments to where you are proud to place your name to it and satisfy your BOR regulations."

A Harris,

This sounds like some "canned" yet very applicable and sound advice that you probably offer on a daily basis!?ÿ If I'm correct, I think that the regs does, in fact, call for a full boundary survey in this case.

Posted by: MightyMoe

Yes, I do that all the time, just did a survey for one line common to three owners to determine if the common access road was in the existing easement, also did a "fence" survey between two land owners. Of course it depends, you may need to figure out an entire block or an entire section before you can do one line.?ÿ

Today we are surveying a line between two landowners, that line is between two GLO caps marking resurvey tracts. If the caps are there and they are original undisturbed then the survey is good as far as I'm concerned. I'm not surveying the entire ranch. If I told them I needed to they would find another surveyor, and they should.?ÿ

?ÿ

MM, wouldn't you first have to establish that the line in question is, in fact, part of the boundary??ÿ ?ÿI am of the opinion that a full boundary needs to be done to establish that fact with full confidence.?ÿ However, I am open for other trains of thought.?ÿ Provided that they are based in logic and follow the NC regs.?ÿ?ÿ

I've had that work out quite well before.

I had the whole neighborhood already "controled" so, just staking one line, stirred the pot. Then, it morphed into more work, that was essentially already done.

It all depends......

I don't believe our board rules specify that a full boundary survey has to be performed to work out individual lines. In the .1603 it refers to boundary lines. I do believe you need to do enough work for it to be correct and defendable.

?ÿ

21 NCAC 56 .1602 SURVEYING PROCEDURES (a) A Professional Land Surveyor shall spend the necessary time and effort to make investigation to determine if there are encroachments, gaps, lappages, or other irregularities along each line surveyed. Points may be placed on the line from closed or verified traverses and the necessary investigations made from these points. If these investigations are not made, then the surveyor shall not certify to an actual survey of that line and the plat shall contain the appropriate qualifications in accordance with the rules in this Section. (b) Any and all visible or determined encroachments or easements on the property being surveyed shall be accurately located and indicated. (c) With respect to investigation of property boundaries and recorded easements, the surveyor shall examine the most recent deeds and recorded plats adjacent to the subject property as well as all deeds and plats recorded after the date of the deed or plat upon which the survey is being based (the survey reference deed or plat). (d) Except as provided in Paragraph (e) of the Rule, metal stakes or materials of comparable permanence shall be placed at all corners. (e) Where a corner falls in a right-of-way, tree, stream, or on a fence post, boulder, stone, or similar object, one or more monuments or metal stakes shall be placed in the boundary so that the inaccessible point may be located accurately on the ground and the map. (f) The results of a survey shall be reported to the user of that survey as a map or report of survey and, whether in written or graphic form, shall be prepared in a clear and factual manner. All reference sources shall be identified. Artificial monuments called for in such reports shall be described as found or set. When no monument is found or set for points described in Paragraph (e) of this Rule, that fact shall be noted. (g) Tie lines defined. Where the results of a survey are reported in the form of a plat or a written description, one or more corners shall, by a system of azimuths or courses and distances, be accurately tied to and coordinated with a horizontal control monument of some United States or State Agency survey system, such as the North Carolina Geodetic Survey, where such monument is within 2000 feet of the subject property, right-of-way, easement or other surveyed entity. Where the North Carolina grid system coordinates of said monument are on file in the Department of Public Safety, Emergency Management, Geodetic Survey office, the coordinates of both the referenced corner or point and the monument(s) shall be shown in X (easting) and Y (northing) coordinates on the plat or in the written description or document. The coordinates shall be identified as based on "NAD 83," indicating North American Datum of 1983 or as "NAD 27," indicating North American Datum of 1927. The datums of the National Geodetic Survey (NGS) are incorporated by reference including subsequent amendments and editions, and may be accessed free of charge at www.ngs.noaa.gov. The tie lines to the monuments shall be sufficient to establish true north or grid north bearings for the plat or description

if the monuments exist in pairs. Control monuments within a previously recorded subdivision may be used in lieu of grid control. In the interest of bearing consistency with previously recorded plats, existing bearing control may be used where practical. In the absence of grid control, other natural or artificial monuments or landmarks shall be used. In all cases, the tie lines shall be sufficient to accurately reproduce the subject lands from the control or reference points used. (h) Area is to be computed by double meridian distance or equally accurate method and shown on the face of the plat, written description, or other document. Area computations by estimation, by planimeter, by scale, or by copying from another source are not acceptable methods, except in the case of tracts containing inaccessible areas and in these areas the method of computation shall be stated.

History Note: Authority G.S. 89C-10; 89C-20; Eff. July 1, 1989; Amended Eff. August 1, 2014; August 1, 2012 (see S.L. 2012-143, s.1.(f)); September 1, 2011; May 1, 2009; August 1, 2000; August 1, 1998; February 1, 1996.

21 NCAC 56 .1603 CLASSIFICATION OF BOUNDARY SURVEYS General. "Boundary surveys" are defined as surveys made to establish or to retrace a boundary line on the ground, or to obtain data for constructing a map, plat, or report showing a boundary line. For the purpose of this Rule, the term refers to all surveys, including "loan" or "physical" surveys, that involve the determination or depiction of property lines. For the purpose of specifying minimum allowable surveying standards for boundary surveys, the following four general classifications of lands in North Carolina are established from the standpoint of their real value, tax value, or location. Each map shall contain a statement of the calculated ratio of precision before adjustments or a statement of positional accuracy. (1) Local Control Network Surveys (Class AA). Local control network surveys are traverse networks utilizing permanent points for the purpose of establishing local horizontal control networks for future use by local surveyors. For Class AA boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed ten seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 20,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:20,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class AA control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.05 feet or 0.015 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (2) Urban Land Surveys (Class A). Urban surveys include lands that normally lie within a town or city. For Class A boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 20 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 10,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:10,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class A control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.10 feet or 0.030 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (3) Suburban Land Surveys (Class B). Suburban surveys include lands in or surrounding the urban properties of a town or city. For Class B boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 25 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 7,500 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:7,500). When using positional accuracy standards for Class B control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.12 feet or 0.037 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (4) Rural and Farmland Surveys (Class C). Rural and farmland surveys include lands located in rural areas of North Carolina and generally outside the suburban properties. For Class C boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 30 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 5,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:5,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class C control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for

any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.15 feet or 0.046 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey.

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Posted by: Firestix

How often do you receive requests to locate only a portion of a 10+ acre complicated property boundary ??ÿ And how do you deal with it??ÿ?ÿ

?ÿ

A similar question came up a few weeks ago and someone remarked that every time you do a boundary for someone you are doing a partial boundary for at least one, and usually several, adjoiners.?ÿ

Posted by: Norman Oklahoma

Posted by: Firestix

How often do you receive requests to locate only a portion of a 10+ acre complicated property boundary ??ÿ And how do you deal with it??ÿ?ÿ

?ÿ

A similar question came up a few weeks ago and someone remarked that every time you do a boundary for someone you are doing a partial boundary for at least one, and usually several, adjoiners.?ÿ

So true.?ÿ I guess it's all about perspective.?ÿ

Happens all the time in PLSSia as Mighty Moe pointed out.

I don't understand what's wrong with only surveying one line.?ÿ Now granted, there are more factors in determining the location of that line than just the monuments at each end of it.?ÿ For instance, if you have a?ÿrectangular parcel, it would almost be impossible to survey a single side without surveying the entire parcel.?ÿ But, if you have a parcel with?ÿ a hundred sides, it is highly unlikely that Line Number 1 has anything to do with Line Number 50.

Now, I get a lot of calls from people with small lots wanting a line staked out to build a fence.?ÿ Every single one of those people get told that I have to survey the entire lot.?ÿ But I also get calls from people with tracts that have many sides, and they only need a portion of that surveyed and marked.?ÿ I tell them that it will be cheaper in the long run to get the entire thing surveyed now, instead of part of it now and all of it later.

Posted by: Firestix

Posted by: MightyMoe

Yes, I do that all the time, just did a survey for one line common to three owners to determine if the common access road was in the existing easement, also did a "fence" survey between two land owners. Of course it depends, you may need to figure out an entire block or an entire section before you can do one line.?ÿ

Today we are surveying a line between two landowners, that line is between two GLO caps marking resurvey tracts. If the caps are there and they are original undisturbed then the survey is good as far as I'm concerned. I'm not surveying the entire ranch. If I told them I needed to they would find another surveyor, and they should.?ÿ

?ÿ

MM, wouldn't you first have to establish that the line in question is, in fact, part of the boundary??ÿ ?ÿI am of the opinion that a full boundary needs to be done to establish that fact with full confidence.?ÿ However, I am open for other trains of thought.?ÿ Provided that they are based in logic and follow the NC regs.?ÿ?ÿ

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by establish, in this case the line in question runs from Corner #8 of Tract 60 to Corner #5 of Tract 56. This is in the present day deed all the way back to when Tract 56 was split into two parcels. If those two monuments are recovered in good condition and in the "correct" position the line will be accepted. If there is a question about them, then it will be necessary to go further and if they are missing, then a resurvey of at least some of if not all of Tract 56 will be started.?ÿ

I was also hired to survey the west line of a 10 acre tract a few weeks ago, by the time I was finished I had resurveyed the north-south and east lines of that parcel, the 10 acre tract to the east and the 5 acre tract to the west plus parts of other adjoiners. It depends; like most things in surveying.?ÿ

Sometimes you have to do much more than just the subject tract to get one line, sometimes you can survey that one line, like I said before; one line for a tract is a line for the adjoiner so do you have to survey both? Yes, sometimes you do, and sometimes all kinds of parcels just to get that one line.?ÿ

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Posted by: A Harris

You survey whatever amount of property monuments to where you are proud to place your name to it and satisfy your BOR regulations.

This is why we're professionals; the ability to make a professional judgment, on a case by case basis, as to the best path forward rather than following some rote, one size fits all, rule.

Do I probably need to establish all four corners on a rectangular 60' x 150' subdivision lot to mark one line - probably.

Do I need to establish corner Z to mark lines A , B & C below...doubtful

In PLSSia a common boundary line is the line connecting a center corner and one of the quarter corners. ?ÿIf those two corners are already monumented ?ÿwhy do you need to do anything but follow that existing line?

Since you called it a "complicated" boundary in your original post, it might be necessary to survey the entire parcel (and neighbors) in order to nail down the location prior to marking the line needed.?ÿ Sometimes that is the only path that makes sense to protect not only your client, but yourself.

As some others have stated, it just depends on the available evidence and what is involved with getting the data needed to substantiate the line to be marked.

There are several ways in which I get this type of call.?ÿ On the small lots, I usually just tell them since I have to confirm the corners being marked between, it will be the same as surveying their lot anyway.?ÿ On larger properties, it will either be someone getting ready to fence/clear/timber or someone who is arguing with their neighbor.?ÿ Some of the fence/clear/timber ones are possible if their is enough evidence to check the line.?ÿ Most of the arguing lines are being argued because their is no clarity of where the line is until surveyed and often requires a survey of the whole property (and neighboring property) to make a substantiated determination.

Kentucky has language in their standards of practice addressing a partial boundary survey of property which is a decent guideline for what would be needed.

?ÿ

This again? There is no reason for a blanket requirement to survey a complete parcel. Some lines are independent, some lines depend on the other lines in the same parcel, and some depend on the lines of other parcels. Our jobs is to use our proffesional judgment to determine which of those options apply to each individual case.?ÿ

Of course, if surveying only one line is not profitable enough you shouldn't take?ÿ those jobs, but dont tell clients they need to have the whole thing surveyed unless they actually do.?ÿ

Posted by: Adam

I don't believe our board rules specify that a full boundary survey has to be performed to work out individual lines. In the .1603 it refers to boundary lines. I do believe you need to do enough work for it to be correct and defendable.

?ÿ

21 NCAC 56 .1602 SURVEYING PROCEDURES (a) A Professional Land Surveyor shall spend the necessary time and effort to make investigation to determine if there are encroachments, gaps, lappages, or other irregularities along each line surveyed. Points may be placed on the line from closed or verified traverses and the necessary investigations made from these points. If these investigations are not made, then the surveyor shall not certify to an actual survey of that line and the plat shall contain the appropriate qualifications in accordance with the rules in this Section. (b) Any and all visible or determined encroachments or easements on the property being surveyed shall be accurately located and indicated. (c) With respect to investigation of property boundaries and recorded easements, the surveyor shall examine the most recent deeds and recorded plats adjacent to the subject property as well as all deeds and plats recorded after the date of the deed or plat upon which the survey is being based (the survey reference deed or plat). (d) Except as provided in Paragraph (e) of the Rule, metal stakes or materials of comparable permanence shall be placed at all corners. (e) Where a corner falls in a right-of-way, tree, stream, or on a fence post, boulder, stone, or similar object, one or more monuments or metal stakes shall be placed in the boundary so that the inaccessible point may be located accurately on the ground and the map. (f) The results of a survey shall be reported to the user of that survey as a map or report of survey and, whether in written or graphic form, shall be prepared in a clear and factual manner. All reference sources shall be identified. Artificial monuments called for in such reports shall be described as found or set. When no monument is found or set for points described in Paragraph (e) of this Rule, that fact shall be noted. (g) Tie lines defined. Where the results of a survey are reported in the form of a plat or a written description, one or more corners shall, by a system of azimuths or courses and distances, be accurately tied to and coordinated with a horizontal control monument of some United States or State Agency survey system, such as the North Carolina Geodetic Survey, where such monument is within 2000 feet of the subject property, right-of-way, easement or other surveyed entity. Where the North Carolina grid system coordinates of said monument are on file in the Department of Public Safety, Emergency Management, Geodetic Survey office, the coordinates of both the referenced corner or point and the monument(s) shall be shown in X (easting) and Y (northing) coordinates on the plat or in the written description or document. The coordinates shall be identified as based on "NAD 83," indicating North American Datum of 1983 or as "NAD 27," indicating North American Datum of 1927. The datums of the National Geodetic Survey (NGS) are incorporated by reference including subsequent amendments and editions, and may be accessed free of charge at www.ngs.noaa.gov. The tie lines to the monuments shall be sufficient to establish true north or grid north bearings for the plat or description

if the monuments exist in pairs. Control monuments within a previously recorded subdivision may be used in lieu of grid control. In the interest of bearing consistency with previously recorded plats, existing bearing control may be used where practical. In the absence of grid control, other natural or artificial monuments or landmarks shall be used. In all cases, the tie lines shall be sufficient to accurately reproduce the subject lands from the control or reference points used. (h) Area is to be computed by double meridian distance or equally accurate method and shown on the face of the plat, written description, or other document. Area computations by estimation, by planimeter, by scale, or by copying from another source are not acceptable methods, except in the case of tracts containing inaccessible areas and in these areas the method of computation shall be stated.

History Note: Authority G.S. 89C-10; 89C-20; Eff. July 1, 1989; Amended Eff. August 1, 2014; August 1, 2012 (see S.L. 2012-143, s.1.(f)); September 1, 2011; May 1, 2009; August 1, 2000; August 1, 1998; February 1, 1996.

21 NCAC 56 .1603 CLASSIFICATION OF BOUNDARY SURVEYS General. "Boundary surveys" are defined as surveys made to establish or to retrace a boundary line on the ground, or to obtain data for constructing a map, plat, or report showing a boundary line. For the purpose of this Rule, the term refers to all surveys, including "loan" or "physical" surveys, that involve the determination or depiction of property lines. For the purpose of specifying minimum allowable surveying standards for boundary surveys, the following four general classifications of lands in North Carolina are established from the standpoint of their real value, tax value, or location. Each map shall contain a statement of the calculated ratio of precision before adjustments or a statement of positional accuracy. (1) Local Control Network Surveys (Class AA). Local control network surveys are traverse networks utilizing permanent points for the purpose of establishing local horizontal control networks for future use by local surveyors. For Class AA boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed ten seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 20,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:20,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class AA control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.05 feet or 0.015 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (2) Urban Land Surveys (Class A). Urban surveys include lands that normally lie within a town or city. For Class A boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 20 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 10,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:10,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class A control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.10 feet or 0.030 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (3) Suburban Land Surveys (Class B). Suburban surveys include lands in or surrounding the urban properties of a town or city. For Class B boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 25 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 7,500 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:7,500). When using positional accuracy standards for Class B control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.12 feet or 0.037 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey. (4) Rural and Farmland Surveys (Class C). Rural and farmland surveys include lands located in rural areas of North Carolina and generally outside the suburban properties. For Class C boundary surveys in North Carolina, the angular error of closure shall not exceed 30 seconds times the square root of the number of angles turned. The ratio of precision shall not exceed an error of closure of one foot per 5,000 feet of perimeter of the parcel of land (1:5,000). When using positional accuracy standards for Class C control and boundary surveys, neither axis of the 95 percent confidence level error ellipse for

any control point or property corner shall exceed 0.15 feet or 0.046 meters measured relative to the position(s) of the horizontal control points used and referenced on the survey.

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?ÿ

This doesnt appear to require only whole parcels to be surveyed.

I always tell them it's like building one wall of a house.