I've been thinking about this lately. I see new fences and drive by fence companies that look like they're doing a good business. But I never get calls from them or from landowners looking to have their lot lines staked because they're putting up a fence.
So how are all these fences getting put up without a survey? Sure some smaller flat lots, a line can be strung between a couple of pipes sticking up. But that's the rare instance. Makes me wonder how many fences are nowhere near the actual boundary line, over it, across it, etc.
I'm a little surprised that this hasn't caused enough disputes or lawsuits that a survey would be required before erecting a fence.
I don't do much work in urban or tight suburban locations, so this doesn't really affect me, but just made me wonder.
Location and local custom is everything. In the West surveys for fencing is super rare, I can hardly remember any in my more than 40 years of practice.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: I'm a little surprised that this hasn't caused enough disputes or lawsuits that a survey would be required before erecting a fence.
Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: Makes me wonder how many fences are nowhere near the actual boundary line, over it, across it, etc.
I would say the fence crews are doing considerably more shovel work than the average survey crew, that being said, their chances of actually recovering an original monument is orders of magnitude greater. Their business sort of depends on this.
Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
Some municipalities and even HOA have requirements regarding surveys before fence construction. It isn't a new thing in some, either. Even back in the 1880s, it was unlawful, and subject to a substantial fine, to erect a fence along a street line in Houston without having the City Engineer survey and mark it.
I do a lot of the exact opposite. I create property lines along existing fence lines. A current project, as planned by the buyer and seller, will have 15 of 17 sides of a new tract following existing fences. The adjusting side is to be set such that the resultant acreage will be 80 acres or a hair bigger. That area is required to permit an out-of-state owner to several privileges relative to the state's hunting laws.
I met a commercial fence contractor during my years of staking highways and we kept in touch with each other due to our common interest in 20th. century 2 wheeled vehicular machinery. His personal opinion is that surveys cause problems, especially in residential work. Any survey work is the responsibility of the owner. He has no problem with "following" a recent survey but his contract not only has verbiage that excludes as much liability as possible, he includes a rough sketch with the document. His "preferred" MO is "replacement of the fence in same location".
And yes they dig up a lot of pins in their work. But he jokingly let me know they always stick the pins back in the ground "exactly" where they were. 😉
Kent McMillan, post: 434731, member: 3 wrote: Some municipalities and even HOA have requirements regarding surveys before fence construction. It isn't a new thing in some, either. Even back in the 1880s, it was unlawful, and subject to a substantial fine, to erect a fence along a street line in Houston without having the City Engineer survey and mark it.
out West in California the land development process often specifies methods for staking fences and walls in new subdivisions, mostly at the whim of the local agencies. Some agencies actually even field check that monuments are set and are properly documented in public records... some even check the Locations too. Of course some local agencies and HOAs also have their "overkill" requirements for building any fences, or even the color you can paint your house...
Luckily the California State Law does not.
The cost/benefit ratio is very important.
Peter Ehlert, post: 434728, member: 60 wrote: Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
The trouble is that 95% of land owners have no idea about such things, and certaintly dont understand the ramifications, so noone is actually assessing this risk.
Out here in WA, we have monument destruction prevention laws. These require a permit be filed with the DNR prior to removing and/or replacing a monument. The permit shows references to the monument to be destroyed (even if it cant be replaced in its original position). The DOTs mostly follow the rules and replace what they destroy. The utility folks are getting better, but still have a long way to go. The fence contractors and home owners are the absolute worst. They destroy so many monuments every year and the DNR gets almost no permits from these folks (filed by their surveyor). I've gone into subdivisions just a few years after they were monumented, to find almost none remaining (but lots of fences and shared driveways where they should be). I'm sure most on this board have had similar experiences.
I'm not saying we need a law (lord knows we have enough). However, there needs to be some serious outreach to owners and others to explain how badly they are shooting themselves in the foot by not getting surveys prior to fence or other building projects.
Noone has made a definitive study of this that i am aware of, but i would guess that millions of dollars in damage are being done every year in monument destruction. In replacement costs alone.
Seems like a great marketing opportunity for surveyors if nothing else. Beyond the silly little idealism of helping and protecting the public. Sarcasm off.
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I've gotten a few fence line staking jobs lately. Fencing runs about $8000 a mile. I can mark the line for around $1000 a mile. The fencers really like a line they can follow. It's fun work doing a big ranch.
I do a lot of surveys for the 3 big fencing companies around here. I contacted them several years ago about the potential problems not having a survey first. They'd decided they'd rather pay me now than move a fence later.
you mentioned fences and "Hub Northing" came to mind, I thought he was involved with fences, besides the one around the prison.
Fence companies begin their project with dozers or graders or other ground clearing and smoothing machines that leave few monuments behind and uncover and destroy all the rest.
Their fences are measured roughly to the dimensions of the property they enclose.
They don't have time for surveyors, their work is more important to them than spending the client's money on surveyors.
0.02
Yup, I always hoped ol' Hub was one of a kind.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: I don't do much work in urban or tight suburban locations, so this doesn't really affect me, but just made me wonder.
paden cash, post: 434755, member: 20 wrote: But he jokingly let me know they always stick the pins back in the ground "exactly" where they were
I do, but where I work everything is "flat". The fence companies, along with the sprinkler companies are great at destroying and "replacing" corners "exactly" where they were, within 5 feet, or wherever it "looks" like It should be.
FL/GA PLS., post: 434917, member: 379 wrote: I do, but where I work everything is "flat". The fence companies, along with the sprinkler companies are great at destroying and "replacing" corners "exactly" where they were, within 5 feet, or wherever it "looks" like It should be.
Sometimes it's hilariously obvious they've been disturbed. A rusted #4 rebar with a heavily oxidized yellow cap...listing 15 degrees to port and sticking up 0.25' out of the fresh concrete poured for the new corner post....c'mon man...
Last year I had to replace about 1000 feet of fence along the east side of one of my farms. The adjoiner is a tightfisted ornery ol' critter who would cheat his own mother out of her burial fund. We both knew where the bar was that marked the south end of our adjoining properties. He pulled it out and moved it about two feet to the west. I moved it back. He did it again. So did I. The fence builder, who has done numerous jobs for both of us, observed this. Finally, he called the adjoiner and told him that he had seen the bar in the original position and was going to set the new corner in line with that position. The ol' critter relented.
The north end of the 1000 foot stretch was on the correct line, so all he would have gained was 1000 square feet to add to this 320 acres. BTW, I learned years ago not to set a reference nail for a section corner in any post that was all or partly his post because it would disappear. Trespassing is what he called it.
A few months ago I ran into a old cantankerous coot that didn't want anybody on his property. He had negotiated with the REC for about 2000' of aerial electric service to an old shop building, but had inexplicably torn up the engineer's staking. He caught me wandering through his hay field (on foot) with a rover....looking for the holes where the lath had been. I could tell when he got some good air coming over a contour (at 50 mph) in a '76 F250 he wasn't interested in talking about the weather.
He sternly gave me instructions to "git!" and I did without a word. I guess he expected some feedback so he idled along side me and bitched and moaned about the "pipeline company" that had been out there to stake...and he hadn't given ANYBODY permission to be out there and that gol-darned pipeline could wait 'til he was dead to go through his property. He stuck with me for about 800' until I reached the section line where my truck was parked...with magnetic REC signs sticking to the sides of the bed.
I hadn't really said anything to him, but I shut down everything and started boxing it up. He finally noticed the signs and asked me "when are they gonna get out there to put power in down to his shop?"
I didn't even look at him when I told him it would be after the engineer was notified that the stakes were gone and was able to get back out there to restake the line. Then I would have to come back out and locate the stakes and prepare an easement and then he'd have to sign it and get it back to the REC and then would have to be scheduled with construction. I did tell him since he pissed me off by running me off I was going to put him back on the bottom of my work order pile and I was kind of hoping there would be a good frost before anybody got back out there.
His tone changed dramatically and he told me he thought I was with the pipeline company....but he fell short of being civil and apologizing like a human being should..and I could've stayed and finished (in about 15 minutes) but I decided to leave. I told him I might be back if someone would guarantee he was nowhere around if I came back out.
On my way back, Brittany at the engineering department called me and said she had gotten a call from old Grumpy's daughter. I told her she needed to get Frank to restake the line. Apparently Frank had run into him also and wasn't really in too much of a hurry to get back out there either.
I got a call Friday from Frank and we've decided to go back out there together on Wednesday.,,maybe. It's been almost ninety days since the work order was issued....;)
paden cash, post: 434927, member: 20 wrote: Sometimes it's hilariously obvious they've been disturbed. A rusted #4 rebar with a heavily oxidized yellow cap...listing 15 degrees to port and sticking up 0.25' out of the fresh concrete poured for the new corner post....c'mon man...
City crew went out to check for monuments after being notified of an "emergency repair". They found a Fresh sidewalk panel, nice work. The original lead and tack with a brass tag was gone, but there was a Penny in the general location. The homeowner was probably pleased.
A naive question here, but if the monuments or other physical control marks are at the property boundary corners or on the boundary lines, then what is the correct procedure for installing a fence and preserving (if necessary) those marks? Presumably the owner/installer does not want to set the fence say 0.5' back inside the property to avoid disturbing the marks, thereby "gifting" some land to the opposition.
My approach to this on livestock fencing is to have two corner posts, one for each direction of fencing leaving that corner, with the short area between the two posts being blocked in a manner so as to close that small gap. The corner monument is left undisturbed. Also, no one else had better attempt to tie their fence to my corner posts.