I've been thinking about this lately. I see new fences and drive by fence companies that look like they're doing a good business. But I never get calls from them or from landowners looking to have their lot lines staked because they're putting up a fence.
So how are all these fences getting put up without a survey? Sure some smaller flat lots, a line can be strung between a couple of pipes sticking up. But that's the rare instance. Makes me wonder how many fences are nowhere near the actual boundary line, over it, across it, etc.
I'm a little surprised that this hasn't caused enough disputes or lawsuits that a survey would be required before erecting a fence.
I don't do much work in urban or tight suburban locations, so this doesn't really affect me, but just made me wonder.
Location and local custom is everything. In the West surveys for fencing is super rare, I can hardly remember any in my more than 40 years of practice.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: I'm a little surprised that this hasn't caused enough disputes or lawsuits that a survey would be required before erecting a fence.
Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: Makes me wonder how many fences are nowhere near the actual boundary line, over it, across it, etc.
I would say the fence crews are doing considerably more shovel work than the average survey crew, that being said, their chances of actually recovering an original monument is orders of magnitude greater. Their business sort of depends on this.
Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
Some municipalities and even HOA have requirements regarding surveys before fence construction. It isn't a new thing in some, either. Even back in the 1880s, it was unlawful, and subject to a substantial fine, to erect a fence along a street line in Houston without having the City Engineer survey and mark it.
I do a lot of the exact opposite. I create property lines along existing fence lines. A current project, as planned by the buyer and seller, will have 15 of 17 sides of a new tract following existing fences. The adjusting side is to be set such that the resultant acreage will be 80 acres or a hair bigger. That area is required to permit an out-of-state owner to several privileges relative to the state's hunting laws.
I met a commercial fence contractor during my years of staking highways and we kept in touch with each other due to our common interest in 20th. century 2 wheeled vehicular machinery. His personal opinion is that surveys cause problems, especially in residential work. Any survey work is the responsibility of the owner. He has no problem with "following" a recent survey but his contract not only has verbiage that excludes as much liability as possible, he includes a rough sketch with the document. His "preferred" MO is "replacement of the fence in same location".
And yes they dig up a lot of pins in their work. But he jokingly let me know they always stick the pins back in the ground "exactly" where they were. 😉
Kent McMillan, post: 434731, member: 3 wrote: Some municipalities and even HOA have requirements regarding surveys before fence construction. It isn't a new thing in some, either. Even back in the 1880s, it was unlawful, and subject to a substantial fine, to erect a fence along a street line in Houston without having the City Engineer survey and mark it.
out West in California the land development process often specifies methods for staking fences and walls in new subdivisions, mostly at the whim of the local agencies. Some agencies actually even field check that monuments are set and are properly documented in public records... some even check the Locations too. Of course some local agencies and HOAs also have their "overkill" requirements for building any fences, or even the color you can paint your house...
Luckily the California State Law does not.
The cost/benefit ratio is very important.
Peter Ehlert, post: 434728, member: 60 wrote: Who would "require" surveys? It is a Private Matter, no government intervention is needed or desired.
Sure, in many cases it would be very wise, but that is something for individuals to decide. Everyone should assess their personal risk tolerance.
The trouble is that 95% of land owners have no idea about such things, and certaintly dont understand the ramifications, so noone is actually assessing this risk.
Out here in WA, we have monument destruction prevention laws. These require a permit be filed with the DNR prior to removing and/or replacing a monument. The permit shows references to the monument to be destroyed (even if it cant be replaced in its original position). The DOTs mostly follow the rules and replace what they destroy. The utility folks are getting better, but still have a long way to go. The fence contractors and home owners are the absolute worst. They destroy so many monuments every year and the DNR gets almost no permits from these folks (filed by their surveyor). I've gone into subdivisions just a few years after they were monumented, to find almost none remaining (but lots of fences and shared driveways where they should be). I'm sure most on this board have had similar experiences.
I'm not saying we need a law (lord knows we have enough). However, there needs to be some serious outreach to owners and others to explain how badly they are shooting themselves in the foot by not getting surveys prior to fence or other building projects.
Noone has made a definitive study of this that i am aware of, but i would guess that millions of dollars in damage are being done every year in monument destruction. In replacement costs alone.
Seems like a great marketing opportunity for surveyors if nothing else. Beyond the silly little idealism of helping and protecting the public. Sarcasm off.
Sent from my LG-M257 using Tapatalk
I've gotten a few fence line staking jobs lately. Fencing runs about $8000 a mile. I can mark the line for around $1000 a mile. The fencers really like a line they can follow. It's fun work doing a big ranch.
I do a lot of surveys for the 3 big fencing companies around here. I contacted them several years ago about the potential problems not having a survey first. They'd decided they'd rather pay me now than move a fence later.
you mentioned fences and "Hub Northing" came to mind, I thought he was involved with fences, besides the one around the prison.
Fence companies begin their project with dozers or graders or other ground clearing and smoothing machines that leave few monuments behind and uncover and destroy all the rest.
Their fences are measured roughly to the dimensions of the property they enclose.
They don't have time for surveyors, their work is more important to them than spending the client's money on surveyors.
0.02
Yup, I always hoped ol' Hub was one of a kind.
JPH, post: 434724, member: 6636 wrote: I don't do much work in urban or tight suburban locations, so this doesn't really affect me, but just made me wonder.
paden cash, post: 434755, member: 20 wrote: But he jokingly let me know they always stick the pins back in the ground "exactly" where they were
I do, but where I work everything is "flat". The fence companies, along with the sprinkler companies are great at destroying and "replacing" corners "exactly" where they were, within 5 feet, or wherever it "looks" like It should be.
FL/GA PLS., post: 434917, member: 379 wrote: I do, but where I work everything is "flat". The fence companies, along with the sprinkler companies are great at destroying and "replacing" corners "exactly" where they were, within 5 feet, or wherever it "looks" like It should be.
Sometimes it's hilariously obvious they've been disturbed. A rusted #4 rebar with a heavily oxidized yellow cap...listing 15 degrees to port and sticking up 0.25' out of the fresh concrete poured for the new corner post....c'mon man...
