Just so you know
The Keith disapproves of this thread.
But you knew he would.
If you feel like it, check out the other place 🙂
Don
Just so you know
The Keith. Haha. Perfect.
This conversation has reminded me of all the tri-stations I have tied into that had a hole mark on top in addition to the centered triangle. I often wondered if maybe I should be holding the off center hole and have actually met some surveyors who insist that the hole is the true point even if off center. Even to describe in detail how the crew would return after the concrete had hardened and drill the hole at the "true" position.
Well, I got the real deal truth last fall at the Corbin astro workshop from an old timey NGS surveyor. Hole is there to let out any trapped air under the cap as it is placed in the concrete.....
BTW...
I wonder what goes through a landowners mind when he looks at an aluminum cap with a punch mark 1/2 inch from center... maybe it looks to him like sloppy work? Maybe if it's explained in detail in the written survey report it just becomes silly to him?
How do surveyors using hard plastic caps do the punch mark thing?
Once we get down to a couple mm or less and the measurements that exact why do we need corner markers at all. At that point and precision the paper is all we need. That's the utopia being advocated here. The punch marks don't mean that much to these experts as they will re punch the cap to their measurements on subsequent trips anyway.
I always center the + or the - in section corner caps in the center, then add the text around it. I then punch it just as a habit but it's the center of the cap. I order my own caps with a + in the center. Do I get it set to a mm or can I actually measure that close, probably not, but they are nice looking markers with something to set the rod in and not slip.
> I wonder what goes through a landowners mind when he looks at an aluminum cap with a punch mark 1/2 inch from center... maybe it looks to him like sloppy work?
Well, I know what I think. I think that some surveyor was actually marking the corner. It's pleasant to see punch marks slightly off center. Although the goal is to get the cap nearly centered on the corner when the rebar has been set in rocky ground that required drilling, there's no room for adjusting the bar once in place and the punch has to follow the corner. So maybe one in ten will end up 0.04 ft. off center.
As for landowners, they see an aluminum cap with a surveyor's name on it and they recognize that it's a quality marker.
Just so you know
> If you feel like it, check out the other place 🙂
What other place?
The only other place I know is www.Surveyor-Thomism.com and over there they're arguing about how many angels can dance on the cap of a property marker.
Some questions for the "NON-DOT'ers"
think how close they'd be if they had a reference point--- :music: imagine all the corners :music: :whistle: hey- there's a song in there somewhere.... actually our practice on corners is quite similar for set caps, but we mark stones that we leave in place-
Just so you know
"on the other board has a thread going about dots on monuments"--- which is magnatudes more than is going on at rpls daught com.....
I don't kid myself as to the accuracy/precision issue. My philosophy has been to survey as precisely as I can and, when all is said and done, I should be good enough. If I traverse around using "somewhere on" the top of some caps, I introduce even more error than if I go from punchmark to punchmark. (however I do think that if I am setting a pipe-and-cap as a section corner, I can straddle the location, dig my hole, and move it around to get it centered at the cross, and I don't have to introduce some off-center punchmark).
Some questions for the "NON-DOT'ers"
Yeah, I scribe an x on top of a stone when I shoot one and leave it in place, but it becomes a matter of scale.
There is a difference between stones in the great empty where land goes for a few hundred $ an acre and a stone near subdivision development. I was down on a recent job where there isn't a dwelling within a couple of townships as far as I could tell. I'm taking care to run static on my control (multiple sessions) and tie in the section corners as accurately as possible in an efficient manner, but concerning where on each monument the location was taken isn't very important to me.
Like this beauty:
Visible notches, firmly set, nice and plumb, so I left it in place and located the top of the stone, but it isn't a very good stone for an x and I didn't give it one. If someone comes up with a location half a tenth or a tenth different than mine, oh well.
Some questions for the "NON-DOT'ers"
A careful reading of regulations will direct the surveyor to identify the cap that he sets. The way I read it is that Lot# or property owner names should be attached to the cap. Like this:
For subdivision work all the caps get stamped and placed in a box with a point # taped to them. Then in the field they are set and turned so that they are pointing the correct direction. A 2" cap works well for this.
Almost no one else goes to the trouble to do this but it is my opinion that the latest regs require it. Of course, you could decide where to locate the monument.
"Hi, my name's Paden and I'm a punchaholic..."
"Hi Paden", replies the group.
"You know, it started out innocently enough. We were all young surveyors trying to do our best. It was real common for us all to walk back down line at the end of the day and punch a few monuments. It was refreshing and relaxing."
A few in the crowd hang their shaking heads.
"But then I realized it empowered me. After a few years it wasn't good enough to do it at the end of the day. I had to punch one or two monuments during the day, discreetly, of course."
"Pretty soon it was all I did. I lived for punching monuments. I had to punch at least one or two before I even left the house for work. My wife wouldn't talk to me and the kids were afraid of me. I remember once I accused my youngest of hiding my punch die and hammer!...can they ever forgive me?"
"Then one day, after I lost it all, I wanted to die. I was living in a van down by the river. Punched monuments strewn all about. I was at the bottom."
"But then an older surveyor, I'll call him "Bill", dropped by and talked me up a bit..and brought me here to the message board. It's been tough. I'm not gonna lie to you all and tell you I haven't punched a cap since, 'cause I have. But not today, and with some help, hopefully not tomorrow either."
"Thanks, Paden", applauded the crowd. :pinch:
"Hi, my name's Paden and I'm a punchaholic..."
To paraphrase an old joke:
What's the difference between a punchaholic and a punchdrunk?
The punchdrunk doesn't have to go to the meetings.:-)
Don
"Hi, my name's Paden and I'm a punchaholic..."
Well, it's not as bad as drinking alcohol anyway.....unless the punch you are drinking is spiked....
> > I wonder what goes through a landowners mind when he looks at an aluminum cap with a punch mark 1/2 inch from center... maybe it looks to him like sloppy work?
>
> Well, I know what I think. I think that some surveyor was actually marking the corner. It's pleasant to see punch marks slightly off center. Although the goal is to get the cap nearly centered on the corner when the rebar has been set in rocky ground that required drilling, there's no room for adjusting the bar once in place and the punch has to follow the corner. So maybe one in ten will end up 0.04 ft. off center.
>
> As for landowners, they see an aluminum cap with a surveyor's name on it and they recognize that it's a quality marker.
So if doing things for show is an important and distinct hallmark of quality to the landowner, why then do you persist in using such a plain North arrow?
🙂
This thread is truly eye opening. For the most part, I think we all agree that a call to a monument is a call to the center, i.e. a call to a creek is a call to the center of the creek, just like a call to a 12" iron pipe/1/2" steel rod/5/8" rebar with aluminum cap stamped Mighty Moe, is a call to the center of those objects.
Now, if there is some identifiable mark on a "larger than normal" object, like a 3.5" aluminum disc, with say, a cross in the top, then I think most surveyors would tie the center of the cross. If there is a punch mark on a cap, even off center, then I think most surveyors would tie the punch mark. If there is no mark, then I see no problem with adding a punch mark with a 60d nail (it works), but it's not requisite.
I would think that this entire thread is an oversimplification of a semantic argument. To be fair to the Mighty one, he did say he marked the monuments in accordance with the manual (obviously baiting us) and no one looked up what that should have looked like. Had they done that, they would have noted the obvious cross.
On those rare occasions where I've been tasked with building concrete monuments with brass/aluminum discs at property corners, once the disc is set, then a punch mark is applied to the final stake out position.
I'd much rather hear how those of you deal with railroad spikes than a disc obviously centered over an artificial monument. That would be interesting. Even more interesting would be methods used for setting said railroad spikes.
Some questions for the "NON-DOT'ers"
> There is a difference between stones in the great empty where land goes for a few hundred $ an acre and a stone near subdivision development.
Until some resource is discovered on that vast wasteland 🙂
The firm I worked for spent quite a wad of a client's cash in SW Wyoming in 1982-3 trying to establish boundaries as O&G wells were being drilled at a frantic pace, I never assume a piece of ground is always going to be worthless and only good for grazing a few sheep or livestock!
PS, Loyal and I met on that project for the first time...
SHG
I found a rock for a corner about 6 months ago that hadn't seen the light of day in about 70 years and the witness trees (stumps) with it. I took a 60d nail and, using it like a star drill, slowing and methodically made a drill hole all the way through the rock and left my nail and a washer on it, along with tons of other evidence, but it was about a 10"x12"x3" iron ore rock cut and shaped and found laying flat instead of up. It was never called to be up, so we assumed it was in the same position. It was just a little extra effort to help the next guy out.
It's refreshing to see that the group has found a way to conduct a P&R style discussion without anybody running the risk of being banned.
Some questions for the "NON-DOT'ers"
I just got done talking to a land man who attended an auction for O&G leases on some BLM mineral properties. He watched as a 2100 acre tract was leased for $7800 per acre. Yikes! $16,000,000+.
How they will recover that cost will make a pretty good story. The cost of the drilling horizontal wells on private land/private minerals is high enough-but private land/fed minerals drives it up even more, although the lease on the Feds often has better royalty terms. Then there is no expectation that they will issue a permit and if forest service "lands" are involved expect three years of permitting H$!! to ensue.
Yes, that stone was located strictly for mineral development. Mucho more valuable than the land. But leaving the stone in place makes me feel more comfortable than replacing it and digging the stone into the ground. Yes it is important that surveyors understand out here that you aren't surveying private lands only. There is little fed surface in the township, but there is federal or state mineral interest attached to 100% of the township and about 50% oil and gas.
