Of course the correct question is "Do they have a right to rely on Right of Way monuments?" Put youself in the shoes of the owner. The owner encounters a very sturdy, stable concrete monument. It has the initials R/W on it. It was set by the state with tax dollars at or near the time that the right of way was widened or straightened.
Very astute owners will take it further and consider that the monuments are shown on the right of way plans that are referred to in the their deeds.
You tell me.
Stephen
Am dealing with a situation at the moment that's a perfect example of the unreliability of right of way monuments. Right of way was conveyed in 1999 and monuments were set. There's a solid description in the conveyance deed. Surveyor comes along last year and surveys the property and holds the right of way monuments, which happen to be about 8 feet off, inside the property being surveyed. I come along about a month ago and resurvey the same property, having no knowledge of his survey. I choose to hold the record description and show the monuments as being incorrect. I would prefer to be able to hold the monuments, doesn't always work out that way though. Engineer calls attention to the conflicting surveys. The other surveyor states he was holding best field evidence, which I can understand in most situations. In my opinion, the monuments are obviously wrong though and I'm sticking with the description. Monuments rarely convey property, typically it's the description that conveys property. I use the following analogy to explain my position, if I create a 2 acre parcel of property and my field crew incorrectly sets the pins 20 feet over onto the neighbor's property, does that mean the neighbor just lost 20 feet of property? I wouldn't think so.
We came to an agreement on how to depict both scenarios on our plats. It's about to drive the title company crazy I'm afraid. I could be wrong, I've definitely scratched my head the last week or so over it.
I don't believe that concrete ROW markers or ROW signs on steel posts were ever intended to mark actual corner locations or be exactly on the line. In most cases here, the markers are placed to only give a general idea where the ROW line is located. I do know of a surveyor who chiseled an "+" on top of each one and called them found NDOR monuments. This is basically ignorance in action.
When someone working on a state or federal road project puts up monuments that look official and they are several feet wrong, then either someone is practicing surveying without a license, or a licensee needs to be brought up for review.
In Illinois the concrete ROW markers are intented for maintenance purposes only. That is, it lets the mowing crews or the ditch cleaners know where their limits are. Finally, in the past few years, IDOT is specifying that the concrete markers be placed 1' inside the ROW. This hopefully gives a buffer to the rod & cap that is supposed to be there to mark the actual corner.
The markers are placed at bend points and PC's & PT's. The idiocy is when these markers fall in a residential area, the markers are set so the top of the concrete is below grade. Taxpayer dollars at work!
Are the letters "APPROX." chiseled in the sides not shown in the photo?
For years I have heard the NYSDOT claim the concrete markers are to guide the crew cutting the grass. The right-of-way is based on the taking maps, station and offset to a baseline usually lost during construction. Finding even 1 original tie is rare. Recently, the monuments set are sometimes closer to the correct location. The DOT is now requiring a chart of 'as-built' vs. 'plan' locations. That helps the surveyors working on the right of way, but not the owners.
Connecticut, on the other hand, has a wonderful system. The right-of-way is monumented. The baseline down the road, generally recoverable points, is well documented, with ties to the right of way. I enjoy working on state roads in Connecticut.
KS
i had one where the old road had a 20' bust
we resolved the issue in house
a PLS/PE came along to do a septic plan along the road
his crew missed the concrete bounds at every corner in the subdivision
but instead relied on a random re-bar and some bounds from the adjoining subdivision (where the corners were about 20' away from the subject subdivision, not by mistake, just how it all worked)
they installed the septic and had to dig into a hillside. then the new owners called and complained to the neighbor: your shed is too close to the line, please move it!
we were called. researched the septic plan, recovered the monuments, staked the property line, prepared a sketch, sent it to the PE/PLS and told him "Next time you are working in my Town and don't know where you are, feel free to call. We like to help before someone messes up a fairly easy solution."
He did not seem pleased at my sincere offer...
ABSOLUTELY!!:good: :good:
the federal and state highways in Arizona are pretty well monumented, and some of the older r/w markers are railroad rails, cut and set vertically and these railroad rails were the monument. later, angle irons were set to mark and protect the monuments (brass caps), and the angle irons were supposed to be set inside the r/w, with the 2 ends lining up on the r/w line, and were typically about 1-2 feet from where the monument itself should be. Often times, the angle irons are all that you will find. Now the angle irons are no longer set, Carsonite posts are now set on the r/w line one foot upstation from the monument itself.
Mitch
On MOST of the State Routes that I have worked with the contractor is paid to set the right of way monuments. A surveyor may stake them absolutely correctly but the laborer with the auger may or may not place them correctly. I have seen them move over "a bit" because they hit a rock or root. I have also seen a new monument one one side of the fence and the stake marking the location on the other. Unfortunately, in Georgia, they are evidence of the fact that a right of way is in this general vicinity.
Andy
Mitch
That was one of the points I tried to make while justifying my decision to use the description.
I always try to recover the center line shown on the R/W maps as that is what controls the R/W location. FDOT is pretty good about having their consultants set curve PI's and points along tangents at 1000 ft. intervals. About all the FDOT 4 x 4 R/W monuments are good for are getting close to a PI, PC or PT. I re-establish the center line and go from there.
What I want to know is ...
If the monument is off by a foot, do you still have to hold it at its true location and not its intended location? 😀
What I want to know is ...
> If the monument is off by a foot, do you still have to hold it at its true location and not its intended location? 😀
NO
Remember the scene in Taxi where Alex is telling Jim to be careful; not all blue berries are blueberries?
Same thing with monuments; not monuments are monumenting boundaries.
What I want to know is ...
Ken -- I know. So what you are saying is that sometimes the actual right of way plans can override what is set in the field???? Simply taking another jab at a discussion we had the other day where some believed that if there is something set in the ground, then by God it has to be a corner, even if it doesn't match the plan (intent)
What I want to know is ...
and the answer to that question is why surveying is more than just numbers, and judgement and rational thinking is so important.
What I want to know is ...
Exactly!! I am very proud of myself as I actually said something when I wanted to (instead of thinking of it 5 minutes later). I had a guy that needed to know where his corner was. But he had one of those "transit thingy's that you look thru for buildings" He was just going to find it himself. My statement was "Having a floor jack doesn't make you a mechanic, that there is a little more that goes into survyeing than looking thru a "transit thingy". I got the job, found the corner and am waiting to see if they are going ahead with the survey.
After years of having the RW monuments not work well in Kentucky, I sat through a class with the chief surveyor for the Transportation Cabinet. As it turns out, official policy was not to set the monuments at the corners but well within the ROW so as to not be trespassing with the monuments. Exactly how far in was a function of time, because the rulebook changed periodically over the years. They were usually set by a contractor and not a surveyor also. That cleared things up for me. At least I understand the craziness now.
The chief surveyor has really brought the Cabinet a long way in his tenure so far and is bringing some real surveying logic to an engineering dominated world.
> I do know of a surveyor who chiseled an "+" on top of each one and called them found NDOR monuments. This is basically ignorance in action.
I don't understand what you are saying. Were they not found NDOR monuments?
Stephen
