I'm curious how condominium (or strata) surveys are conducted in other parts of the world.?ÿ In terms of both field measurement procedures as well as plan drafting requirements.?ÿ I work in British Columbia, Canada and here a professional land surveyor will prepare a set of plans showing each floor of the building, with each unit dimensioned and area shown.?ÿ This information is used to calculate unit entitlement, and the plan gets registered in the Land Title Office to create title for each unit.?ÿ Most often units are dimensioned to the centerline of both exterior and interior walls.?ÿ While design plans are used as a guide, this still means that each unit is measured to confirm the dimensions, and the general procedure is something like this:
- Field personnel visit building site when interior walls are in but not yet dry-walled, and measure the extent of each unit.?ÿ Most firms will send a crew out with some basic drawings and a Disto laser to measure everything.?ÿ The dimensions are then hand written on the drawings provided, or in some cases they may also sketch the units as they measure them.?ÿ Checks will also be performed to make sure the measured distances add up within an acceptable tolerance to close each unit.?ÿ Tools used include pencil, paper, clipboard, disto, tape measure, and camera.
- The information is then handed over to a drafter who starts preparing a plan.?ÿ A good drafter might have a system to relatively quickly take the information from paper to drawing, however a lot of it is quite manual in nature.?ÿ Checks include dimension and area verification, and verification of complicated areas from photos, etc.
While very generalized, does the above sound similar to how things are done where you work??ÿ I'm interested in hearing whether surveyors prepare such plans, and to what extent the effort is similar to where I work.
The reason I ask is because the whole procedure is very manual (read time consuming and expensive) and could benefit from some automation.?ÿ Perhaps there are already some lesser known automation tools in use elsewhere that I may not be aware of??ÿ Would an easy to use set of applications and tools be of interest to those preparing these plans, if significant time savings and reduction in error possibilities were realized from using such tools?
For very complicated geometry, scanners get used also, however this will usually mean extra time processing the data, not less.
I've tried some of the apps that pair with the Bluetooth Distos, however the ones I've seen do not impress enough to make me actually consider using them to replace current manual methods.
Thanks.
That sounds about normal, to me.?ÿ What's the hurry? Where do you see the need for automation?
That sounds about normal, to me.?ÿ What's the hurry? Where do you see the need for automation?
I have sometimes heard the argument "Everything is charged by the hour, why invest in something that will reduce billable hours", or something along those lines.
I am inclined to seeking efficiencies, and the counter argument would be that you can charge more per hour and accomplish the same or better service by optimizing workflows, while remaining competitive.?ÿ In my view, there is no hurry necessarily, but this niche area of specialty seems ripe for some automation and improved efficiency.
Most States and markets I work in the condos are fairly small scale. Automation would not help a great deal. We usually measure the plan view to finished drywall and show typical sections through units as appropriate.
Our State defines a condo pretty well. The unit is the open seed place and the walls are the monument. The real work is in crafting proper declarations. As with most projects the measurements should be correct but they are a small part of the job...
Sounds about right. In South Africa these are called "Sectional Title Surveys". I try and do as much TS work as possible by measuring building corners and confirm wall thicknesses throughout the building. Then its a simple drafting exercise by drawing the outline of the building and applying a parallel line at the half width of the wall. Nice to have a few internal dimensions to verify nothing has gone wrong. This may not apply to you - we are required to survey and plot the building corners in any case.
Very simple on a high rise building as one can assume vertical walls and little deviation from top to bottom. Obviously one would check.
Attached is a simple example of one of my projects of a sectional title scheme. This is not a high rise building but rather a series of small buildings built on one piece of land. This is advantageous over several smaller subdivisions as building lines, minimum lot sizes, density controls don't necessarily apply.
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Sheet 1 shows the property information, scheme name, municipal council and a short summary of the sections under survey (you will notice my survey is an extension of an existing scheme by the addition of buildings and sections)
Sheet 2 shows a layout of the property and the buildings on it (existing and new), as well as any servitudes.
Sheet 3 shows the actual sections to the median line of the demising walls.?ÿUsually sheet 3 is reserved for Exclusive use areas and the sections are are shown thereafter but this scheme does not have any.
Sheet 4 shows the areas of each section, the sum total and the PQ. This PQ is used to proportionally levy each section owner for the running expenses of the scheme.
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I started my career in B.C. and participated in some "Strata" surveys there. Now I practice in Oregon and Washington and have done a few condominiums. The process is much the same in both places. A difference is that the wall feature that defines unit boundaries is dictated by statute in B.C., in the U.S. it is specified in the Declaration document. It may be the surface of the wallboard, the studs, or even the exterior face.
Tying the exterior building walls and offsetting by a wall thickness is a good way to go in many situations but not a universal panacea. Getting into the units to measure after the studs are up but before the wallboard goes on is practically a must.?ÿ
Rest easy in the knowledge that no one has ever retraced a unit boundary. If the monuments are lost there are bigger fish to fry.?ÿ?ÿ
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This sounds about right for how it works around here. The real challenge is coming up with plans that make sense for a 200 year old building where the walls aren't square. That is real fun to draw up in CAD.
Norman is correct in stating "If the monuments are lost there are bigger fish to fry.."
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My understanding is that the purpose of a recorded Condominium Plat is to allow the structure to be reconstructed as it existed prior to a disaster. On several occasions I have suggested recordation of the construction plans themselves, but am usually met with a blank stare. A Title officer once replied that would be useless because he couldn't read construction plans.
Reconstruction is governed by a combination of State law, insurance regulations and declarations. In every project I've done once a unit is destroyed it no longer exists. Declarations and insurance may replace it but it's not the same unit...
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My understanding is that the purpose of a recorded Condominium Plat is to allow the structure to be reconstructed as it existed prior to a disaster.?ÿ
Probably the purpose will be to properly apportion the insurance payout after the disaster.?ÿ
I have suggested recordation of the construction plans
And what makes you think the construction plans and an as-built bear a tight relationship??ÿ I'm familiar with a church where there are significant differences and wouldn't be surprised to find that in a condo.
Bill,
There may be little if any relationship, but the Construction Plans are what was financed, not the As-built.
RCW 64.34 is the law that governs condos here in WA. It spells out what the limits of condominium are, how it is measured, what the survey map needs to show and why. Basically the wallboard and flooring are the limits. I've seen maps with interior walls and without. The condo plat can be prepared from plans but those need to meet recording standards which probably don't so that is rare. The condo can be recorded based on plans but that fact needs to me noted on the plat. There are different rules for those filed before 1990.?ÿ
I don't do many of these and have always arrived at the measurement stage after the walls are in. Construction moves too fast for me to be in the mix measuring and trying to find out where walls will be while the other trades are trying to work. I've done a few conversions in my day where you need to enter someone's apartment, draw a sketch of the limits, measure the walls moving furniture, pictures, and other crap, and make a plat; not fun.?ÿ
The purpose of the condo plat is the same as any real estate subdivision. To quantify the location of the space to be sold and allow for the description thereof to refer to a specific plat.?ÿ
Recently I had the pleasure of looking at a condominium plat which was so badly crafted that I took the time to send an image to my BOR. No reference horizontal or vertical points on the ground for 47 units that weren't even tied to the property boundary. I'd love to submit an image here but the moderator would probably want the surveyor's name redacted.?ÿ?ÿ
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Sounds about right. In South Africa these are called "Sectional Title Surveys". I try and do as much TS work as possible by measuring building corners and confirm wall thicknesses throughout the building. Then its a simple drafting exercise by drawing the outline of the building and applying a parallel line at the half width of the wall. Nice to have a few internal dimensions to verify nothing has gone wrong. This may not apply to you - we are required to survey and plot the building corners in any case.
Very simple on a high rise building as one can assume vertical walls and little deviation from top to bottom. Obviously one would check.
Attached is a simple example of one of my projects of a sectional title scheme. This is not a high rise building but rather a series of small buildings built on one piece of land. This is advantageous over several smaller subdivisions as building lines, minimum lot sizes, density controls don't necessarily apply.
?ÿ
Sheet 1 shows the property information, scheme name, municipal council and a short summary of the sections under survey (you will notice my survey is an extension of an existing scheme by the addition of buildings and sections)
Sheet 2 shows a layout of the property and the buildings on it (existing and new), as well as any servitudes.
Sheet 3 shows the actual sections to the median line of the demising walls.?ÿUsually sheet 3 is reserved for Exclusive use areas and the sections are are shown thereafter but this scheme does not have any.
Sheet 4 shows the areas of each section, the sum total and the PQ. This PQ is used to proportionally levy each section owner for the running expenses of the scheme.
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I remember doing these when I lived in SA. You had to access every room in the building to measure the inside and check wall thickness. Most of the time they were conversions, so you had people already living in them and you had to work your way around all their stuff they had crammed in the living area.?ÿ
Thanks for all the comments and info.?ÿ It does indeed sound like in general terms the procedure is nearly identical in many regions.?ÿ Certainly starting with a good perimeter from foundation to parallel offset is key, but I'm also thinking of more involved measurements like a multi-storey building where a lot is going on inside, storage, mechanical, electrical, hallways, common areas, etc. and not to forget cross sections.?ÿ In any case, complex or simple, there still ends up being a fair bit of manual translation and interpretation.?ÿ Imagine if:
- You had a simple little app for a phone or tablet that paired with a Disto and made measuring units easier and faster than traditional methods.?ÿ The app would allow hand-entered measurements and computations when necessary, and would allow the user to set up projects with multiple floors.?ÿ The app draws the geometry as it's measured, and has tools for closure checks, etc.?ÿ The app would automatically upload the info to a cloud database.
- On the office end, you could log in to a website that would load the database for more advanced interactions, such as translating the project onto a certain coordinate system, automatic centerline extraction, automatic cross section extraction, etc, and the results could be downloaded in a various formats, including DWG.?ÿ I'm thinking drafting time could be cut by 50% or more.
I'm interested in developing these types of tools, and am trying to gauge the level of possible interest in something like this without getting too carried away with the details or sales angles on it.
Hi Jacob,
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I think what you are after is TachyCad: https://www.faro.com/products/construction-bim-cim/faro-tachycad/
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I looked into this as we were doing a lot of tenant area measurements in big shopping centers.
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Regards,
Nic.
I hadn't heard of this TachyCAD product before, but it looks interesting.?ÿ For strata/condo measurements the product would not be suitable, but certainly for detailed as-builts for other purposes it would be really slick.
We use this software all the time paired with a bluetooth disto-
http://surveymbs.com/our-software/mbs-floor-plans
We generally survey as much as possible with the total station and fill in the gaps with MBS. Starting to use laser scanning more these days for bigger more complex buildings.
We use this software all the time paired with a bluetooth disto-
http://surveymbs.com/our-software/mbs-floor-plans
We generally survey as much as possible with the total station and fill in the gaps with MBS. Starting to use laser scanning more these days for bigger more complex buildings.
The MBS Floor Plans software description sounds a lot like what I had in mind.?ÿ I'll try to get a trial to see how well it works.
If anyone is interested, I found?ÿthis announcement from Leica?ÿintroducing the new X3 & X4 Distos, along with a new DISTO Plan app.?ÿ These devices should be available to purchase on April 23.?ÿ From everything I've been able to find, it looks like this is a big improvement over existing apps that Leica has, and could very well be what I've been looking for actually.