I am trying to get a consensus, on what surveyors do when you prepare a topography survey, and a year or so later a contractor calls wanting all your control points. This can sometimes come from the contractor, your previous client, the new owner (as in not your original client), the engineer or anyone else really.?ÿ
Do you just send it way, and if so in what form? Do you make them sign a waiver, then send it away? And most importantly do you charge for sending this info??ÿ
I don't mind not doing as much construction staking as before, but it seems this trend is becoming the contractor with his total station or GPS unit, just staking his own stuff.?ÿ?ÿ
(HINT: I typically charge a fee and after making sure control is still onsite, but I do not think any fee that I could charge for ALL of these will make up for the ONE that has a problem.)?ÿ
If the request comes from a good client, I'll usually provide enough control information to support the work without charge.?ÿ Depending on my sense of the end user, I might include a generic disclaimer.
If the request comes from an unrelated third party, I'll prepare a cost proposal to assemble the information and field-verify the points.?ÿ I don't get taken up on those very often.
All topo's come with control points for the project. No need to charge for it.
If you had shown sufficient survey baselines, benchmarks and set monuments on the map, then there is no need for a phone call. IMO these are minimum technical standards required on the topo map. I often make this call to surveyors. Some tell me it was not part if the original contract, which is BS as they are envious not getting the layout. Engineers have told me the original surveyor specifically requested the BM and Monuments be withheld from the map and cad file.?ÿ
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If you had shown sufficient survey baselines, benchmarks and set monuments on the map, then there is no need for a phone call.?ÿ
I should clarify that I do show sufficient control on my topo maps to enable any competent surveyor to lock onto the map.?ÿ The calls I get usually come from contractors who don't want to -- or don't know how to -- use that information to bring control to their work zones.
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In that case, they would be asking for additional professional services. Charge accordingly.
P.S.?ÿ I can't remember the last time I used a baseline for topo control.?ÿ In these days of ubiquitous CAD, I figure that coordinated control points are all that's needed.?ÿ I let the design engineer establish a baseline on his plans if that's what he wants.
I can't recall the last time I have seen a paper topographic survey. It's probably been at least 5 years, if not more. Everything lately is electronic data.?ÿ If an architect calls me asking for a topographic survey they get a topographic survey, if the call and ask for a topographic survey along with well established survey control outside of the project area with a high probability of last 1-2 years for use in construction of a building, that is what they get.?ÿ Saying every topographic survey should have control points identified and established is just not true.?ÿ?ÿ
I typically don't set our permanent project control until i know what's happening to the site.?ÿ This is usually long after our topo is complete.
I have worked at companies that do it both ways. And I think that not including it in topography files is the better of the options.?ÿ
When I always included it in the Topo CAD file, I had no idea who is using that control and what level of competency they have. I received a call today from a local water district wanting our control so they could use it to design their water line extension to the project we topo'ed years ago. They had our CAD file. I went out in the field and saw a PK Nail, right next to where our MAG nail WAS. New concrete, and new PK nail within 0.2' of where our MAG was. Had I just handed over a control file, I foresee I would have gotten dragged into a big mess when someone had gotten off on the wrong foot.
By not providing it initially, I now know who is using it and for what.?ÿ?ÿ
leegreen: For me it has nothing to do with being envious of not getting layout. (I don't particularly care for staking projects). It is about making sure the owner/client is protected from someone (usually not a surveyor) starting on the wrong control points. And that is what I am nervous about providing it without checking it a few days before, therefore incurring a charge.?ÿ
A lot of firms send out an ACAD file with control stripped. They do not produce a paper copy or use a certificate based seal and signature. While it is common, it also violates numerous rules in nearly every State.
Back to the thread...
If you cant work from my drawing and its my fault I'll set you some control no charge. If you just want extras it will cost you...
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"and a year or so later a contractor calls wanting all your control points"
I don't give any control, vertical or horizontal to anybody, except surveyors. I would absolutely charge for verification of of all control points.
Don't work for free!?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ??ÿ
Unless it is specifically requested by the original client then I typically do not show "X & Y Control" on a topo survey. However, I will typically show a TBM for "Z Control". My feelings have always been (and always will be) its a topo survey, not a layout sheet. Every topo survey has the boundary lines and called for corners so that should be enough for a competent person to do what they need and I will be damned if I am going to list X&Y Control. If they want it I will sell it to them but I want to see what they are doing first and how they are doing it.?ÿ
If someone other than the original client calls asking for the control then I will charge accordingly. I try very hard to do no free work, I am not a charity.
Topo without control is like a car without it's engine.
Topo without control is like a car without it's engine.
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Are we talking horizontal control or just marked benchmarks on site??ÿ ?ÿ two Benchmarks then, yes, that should be with the data.?ÿ Horizontal?ÿ ??ÿ NOPE.?ÿ?ÿ
A topo survey without Horizontal control is perfectly useable data for the engineer to design improvements from.?ÿ
WHY would a surveyor want to 1) give away data??ÿ 2) Put themselves at risk for possible construction off said data??ÿ ?ÿ
That's why you go in with a clear contract and appropriate fees.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
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Why would a Developer hire a Surveyor to perform?ÿa Topo, whom intentionally withholds the horizontal and/or vertical?ÿcontrol??ÿThen the Developer is held at ransom on the 11th hour while trying to get the project under construction.
That is misleading to the client, and possibly extortion.
leegreen, A topographic survey does not require X&Y control to be a proper topographic survey and if it meets the state board requirements and satisfies the original contract then there is no problem. For you to say that it is "extortion" is ludicrous.
I mean that truly is an ignorant comment.
Where do you draw the line? Do you show control for your boundary surveys? If not.......why don't you? Lets say you go and do a boundary survey for someone who later wants to build a house. I can only assume that you don't have any control shown on your boundary surveys, so then are you guilty of extortion if the homeowners builder asks for it?
If the topo survey shows the boundary lines and corner monuments along with the calls then any body worth more than a pinch of shit should be able to do what is needed so long as a site BM is provided.
I have always included horizontal and vertical control along with my topos.?ÿ Its going to be needed for the construction portion and I'm not going to hold it back just so that I can try get them to use me for the construction.?ÿ Most of the time it is in the contract anyways.?ÿ I see no additional liability in providing it.?ÿ The control, like anything else on my survey is good the day I set it.?ÿ If they wait a year/month/week to use it, they are responsible for checking it.?ÿ Just like a property corner, I have no more responsibility for it after I had set it and left the site.?ÿ And if you provide vertical control, how is that any different then horizontal control.?ÿ Do you verify it before they use it?
Are these difference of opinions a result of regional differences in practice and/or definitions??ÿ Maybe things are different elsewhere but as I read this thread, to me a "Topo Survey"?ÿmeans just that...a topography map showing ground contours, possibly specific spot elevations and possibly above ground improvements.?ÿ There wouldn't be any boundary monuments or lines shown on a purely "Topo Survey" product and IMHO in todays day and age such a product in paper form only would be next to useless.?ÿ If I were asked to do one, establishing 4 or more control points from which the topo was based would be part of the original contract and the coordinates for them would be listed on the paper/PDF?ÿversion and available in the CAD file (along with the collected ground shots).?ÿ
I work in a very urban area 90%+ of the time so this type of particular product is dangerous.?ÿ Topo without boundary information scares the begeezus out of me.?ÿ Most of the time when topo is requested it's because something is going to be built and placing those improvements on the topo without knowing their relationship to ownership lines would be a terrible thing in almost every scenario I can think of.?ÿ This why most of my deliverables in the design/entitlement phase are a boundary survey including topography & improvements.?ÿ There is always a basis of bearings statement (said basis line being visible on the survey) and benchmark description (sometimes a site TBM as well if the original BM is far from the site) listed which gets copied to the construction documents as that's a JHC plan requirement.?ÿ
Were I to not include that "control"?ÿinformation on either product initially then?ÿcharge extra for it later on down the road I don't imagine I would have very many?ÿrepeat Clients.?ÿ Being asked 3 years later to go back and verify those points still exist in the same form they did when I based the survey on them is a different story.?ÿ Definitely I would charge something extra for that.?ÿ?ÿ
Are these difference of opinions a result of regional differences in practice and/or definitions?
Project scale too.?ÿ Most places I've worked improvement plans for any substantial improvements to civil infrastructure?ÿhave requirements of H&V control to be on the?ÿcivil plans for them to get approvals.
Were I to not include that "control"?ÿinformation on either product initially then?ÿcharge extra for it later on down the road I don't imagine I would have very many?ÿrepeat Clients.?ÿ
Think small, win small.?ÿ If a client has to call me for any reason after he's signed the proposal (other than to invite me to their Christmas party or ask what brand of bourbon I drink) then regardless of my skill as a surveyor, I've failed as a businessman.?ÿ
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I do not routinely put control on my topo surveys but that is mainly because almost all of my projects have been "in house".?ÿ Probably I should start. If I am asked for control on a project I have wrapped up a pdf report that consists of a brief narrative describing the grid projection and vertical datum source, a spreadsheet listing of major control points and their coordinates, a control diagram (usually a Google Earth screen cap), and the StarNet listing report.?ÿ?ÿ
I do regularly get topos from other companies, and I know of none that put their control on their maps. I've worked for a number of outfits (13 by last count, 2 countries, 3 states, 30 years) and only 1 made a habit of expressly including the control on the topo maps.
I can often extract it from point data in the CAD drawings, if and when I get those.?ÿ And I almost always find it to be unadjusted and poorly monumented. Mag nails in sidewalk cracks and joints are common.?ÿ I wouldn't want to document that either.?ÿ?ÿ