I have a request from a California attorney to convert a lot and block description in Tucson to a metes and bounds, which we do not do in Arizona, so she will get a polite but firm refusal. That got me wondering: Is there a rule for that in California?
Yes. You have to be an idiot to be an attorney.
It's usually a bad idea, but I've never heard of a rule about it. It's forbidden in AZ?
Bruce Small, post: 326083, member: 1201 wrote: I have a request from a California attorney to convert a lot and block description in Tucson to a metes and bounds, which we do not do in Arizona, so she will get a polite but firm refusal. That got me wondering: Is there a rule for that in California?
What I'm wondering is, should I have had that last Torpedo?
Answer to question is: No.
Under almost all circumstances that I can imagine, there is no good purpose served by what she is asking.
Don
Well, it is a waste of time and money and there is not need for it. It can be done and I believe it can be done is a safe fashion. There very first thing to do is to call for the map. The next thing to do is to qualify every course to the map.
... beginning at the northwest corner of lot 1 per said map thence along the north line of said lot 1 bearing and distance to the northest corner of said lot 1 ....
Bruce,
Here is a suggestion, along the line of what Dane wrote:
Lot 1, Block 1, Lawyer Up Subdivision as recorded July 6, 2015, Document No. 2015-11111, California County California Deeds and Records and being more particularly described as:
Beginning at the Northeast corner of Lot 1 Block 1, Lawyer Up Subdivision; thence SOUTH 100 feet to the Southeast corner of said Lot 1; thence WEST 100.00 feet to the Southwest corner of said Lot 1... and so on...
Does that help?
Good luck,
LT
California Civil Code section 1067 says:
"A clear and distinct limitation in a grant is not controlled by other words less clear and distinct."
Seems to me to favor a lot and block description.
I've done what Dane recommends and also appended: "this description is not intended to replace the official lot and block description."
There must be an attorney checklist floating around out there with an item that says "Place left forefinger on first course in description and right forefinger on first course on map. Advance left forefinger to second course in description while advancing right forefinger to second course on map. Continue as above until right forefinger returns to its starting position." In order to check this item off the list, an metes description is required.
As others have noted, I'll prepare such when I can't talk the attorney down off the checklist, but it's certainly a waste of time.
Have fun with it. Write one with 18 courses to get to the point of beginning. Start with something like: Commencing at a purplish-colored bird dropping directly in front of the main entrance to the Brown Derby; thence west-north-west 83.72 feet to a found cigarette butt left by a homeless, one-legged lesbian; thence...........
It is what it is - Lot _, Block _, Section _, Subdivision _, etc from day one till it is no more.
Your drawing will reflect "what" and will serve as the metes and bounds.
the end
Bruce Small, post: 326083, member: 1201 wrote: I have a request from a California attorney to convert a lot and block description in Tucson to a metes and bounds, which we do not do in Arizona, so she will get a polite but firm refusal. That got me wondering: Is there a rule for that in California?
I'm with you Bruce - just say no. I went around and around with Chicago Title Co. once and wound up fairly high up the chain before I got someone to understand.
Lloyd L Tolbert, post: 326096, member: 10177 wrote: Bruce,
Here is a suggestion, along the line of what Dane wrote:
Lot 1, Block 1, Lawyer Up Subdivision as recorded July 6, 2015, Document No. 2015-11111, California County California Deeds and Records and being more particularly described as:
Beginning at the Northeast corner of Lot 1 Block 1, Lawyer Up Subdivision; thence SOUTH 100 feet to the Southeast corner of said Lot 1; thence WEST 100.00 feet to the Southwest corner of said Lot 1... and so on...
Does that help?
Good luck,
LT
I would NEVER do this!!
Bruce Small, post: 326083, member: 1201 wrote: I have a request from a California attorney to convert a lot and block description in Tucson to a metes and bounds, which we do not do in Arizona, so she will get a polite but firm refusal. That got me wondering: Is there a rule for that in California?
I did a search for any rules that fit your criteria. Nothing comes up here in CA. A few references to using M & B, but nothing about converting an existing Block/Lot parcel to M & B.
I'm having a hard time coming up with a viable reason for doing it? It just isn't practical and can be very dangerous. Talked to another guy in the office about it. He said that lots of back east attorneys will try to get B & L surveys converted to M & B. Just cause that is all they know.
But I'm with you. I'd just kindly refuse and explain why. If that doesn't do it then charge/receive a massive fee and then disclaim it ☺.
It what the real estate folks do.
I've done what Dane suggested several times, but I wouldn't do it anymore.
What the attorney wants is something she can understand and type into her made-for-attorneys-paralegals-and-title-officers cogo program to check the closure. Conscientious surveyors, wanting to be reasonable and helpful while preserving the intent of the original description take the time to prepare a M&B description with lots of controlling calls to original monuments, lines as shown on the record map or described in records cited to by the original map, and make it so that a following surveyor can't possibly ignore the actual controlling elements and treat the dimensions as anything other than informational.
What happens all too often is that the paralegal or a title company employee transcribing the description to the deed decides that the description you wrote is unnecessarily long, so they shorten it so that it fits neatly on one sheet or in the description space on the deed form. They do that by deleting all of that unnecessary stuff you included about beginning at the iron pipe marking a particular lot corner, going along the lot line as shown on the map ([sarcasm]like, isn't that obvious! Hel-lo![/sarcasm]), and any calls for monuments. Everyone else in the transaction knows that all that's needed are the degrees, feet, and inches, and the distances. ([sarcasm]I wonder why they have feet and inches in the direction part?!?[/sarcasm])
I've seen too many perfectly good descriptions stripped of any truly useful information and morphed into verbal closure reports to be inclined to be helpful to the attorney in this manner. I would much rather provide them a closure report to satisfy that checkmark on their review list.
And, no, there are no laws or rules about having to provide M&B descriptions for transactions. Lenders based on the East Coast usually have such internal rules, but that doesn't mean that you need to provide data in a way that you are uneasy with.
You would think California's Subdivision Map Act would have a section relating to the lot and block being sufficient. The closest is the next to last section, section 66499.57 of the Government Code:
"Whenever the city council or board of supervisors adopts a map prepared under this division as the official map of the subdivision, town, city or county, it shall be lawful and sufficient to describe the lots or blocks in any deeds, conveyances, contracts, or obligations affecting any of the lots or blocks as designated on the official map, a reference sufficient for the identification of the map being coupled with the description."
It's more likely that commentators such as Gurden Wattles and Curtis Brown have covered this matter thoroughly.
Mapman, post: 326192, member: 6096 wrote: I did a search for any rules that fit your criteria. Nothing comes up here in CA. A few references to using M & B, but nothing about converting an existing Block/Lot parcel to M & B.
I'm having a hard time coming up with a viable reason for doing it? It just isn't practical and can be very dangerous. Talked to another guy in the office about it. He said that lots of back east attorneys will try to get B & L surveys converted to M & B. Just cause that is all they know.
But I'm with you. I'd just kindly refuse and explain why. If that doesn't do it then charge/receive a massive fee and then disclaim it ☺.
It what the real estate folks do.
"It just isn't practical and can be very dangerous. "
Could cloud the title...
Jim in AZ, post: 326196, member: 249 wrote: "It just isn't practical and can be very dangerous. "
Could cloud the title...
On the other hand.....(I love playing 2 sides of an issue!).
If all they are using it for is checking the closure on the lot - then provide a simple text file with the bearings/distances of record - pro bono; no certification, with a purpose statement. Simply prepared from record data (not a survey) as a courtesy to your client and stating that with the data.
It is the responsibility of the end user to use it in the manner for which it is intended. It may open the door to possible mis-representation, but is that our liability? My experience is it would be entirely defendable.
Warren Smith, post: 326098, member: 9900 wrote: California Civil Code section 1067 says:
"A clear and distinct limitation in a grant is not controlled by other words less clear and distinct."
Seems to me to favor a lot and block description.
While true, an attorney might think exactly the opposite and want to take out all of that nonsense like lot and block, because you have perfectly clear bearings and distances. (and that attorney is legally qualified to interpret the law).
I could write a description as others have suggested calling to the lot and block lines making them senior, etc., but I think that is a bad idea. Just as an attorney is expert at drawing up contracts for third parties and looking out for their best interest, you are expert @ writing descriptions that are precise and clear. I would try to insist to the nonsurveyor that it is in their best interest to follow your advice and refuse to add words that could muddy up a description. You're the professional in this area. (Let's also not forget that you might have proportioning in the distances and change the area of the parcel, which could also potentially cause more problems if there is a minimum lot size. The legal area of the parcel is what was on the original plat. Creating metes and bounds out of a lot and block is just a bad idea.)
OK - another sideways reference is in California's Business and Professions Code:
"11018.2.
No person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease in this state any lots or parcels in a subdivision without first obtaining a public report from the Real Estate Commissioner. This section shall not apply to subdivisions for which a notice of intention is not required under the provisions of this chapter."
This is another layer involved in the sale of subdivided lands in California. While not explicitly referring to the descriptions of the lots or parcels as shown on the subdivision map, in practice that's how it's done. Try to close escrow or get that white paper from the Bureau of Real Estate any other way ...
For that matter, lenders, title insurance agents, tax assessors all are going to want to see lot or parcel descriptions.
