Seems like the over the last couple of years I've been running across more and more spikes set for missing property corners, maybe with a stake chaser, maybe not, a lath stating "Approx Prop Corner", but nothing indicating who set it. Most have been fairly recent, many in conjunction with a recently built low end new home in an older subdivision where the control is maybe a little sketchy. So is this common practice in your neck of the woods? To me it says, well I can't really be certain where the corner is but it should be somewhere around here but I can't afford to invest the time to be certain and set something more permanent. I'd really like to find out who is behind doing this and have a few words with them.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Well, I've seen some "surveys", that SHOULD have had that on all corners! It was just an admission!
Thank you,
Nate
I have set a stake a couple of times and told the property owner it was approximate, I only did it because they were getting ready to underbrush and needed to know where to stop. I came back the next day and set the permanent corner.
In Montana there is a company with a branch office that does this on a regular basis. The office is managed by a PE with no LS on staff. Its a bad situation, and hopefully will correct itself at some point.
It might be good enough for the El Cheapo client that doesn't want to pay any more than the bare minimum for a survey, but it's next to worthless to me in trying to reconstruct a subdivision block where nearly all the original wooden hubs have rotted away and the only control I'm left with was set by Anonymous Surveys who don't have enough confidence in their own work to put their name on it.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I've had several projects where I wanted an approximate corner or 3 or 5. But I just couldn't do it. First off the board would have hanged me. Then I am a PLS. I found that if I just stayed with if the job could be solved. I lost time and money. But at the end of the day I could sleep, after many beers. But I felt good of myself for hanging in. I have had a couple I walked from or fired. ?ÿ
The Oregon Board clearly does not like the practice, but seems unable to stop it. The going price for a "proper" boundary of a common house lot in the Portland area starts in the $3k - $4k range. Filing fees alone are pushing $500.?ÿ So people do these "approx" jobs monumented with popsicle sticks so folks can "build a fence".?ÿ?ÿ
$500 is the going rate for such a job start to finish in Tulsa, and probably in most of the middle of the country. Of course for that a surveyor can't spend more than an hour or 2 in the field. Which means finding a couple of likely looking monuments to jump on and running out the deed dimensions.?ÿ Which results in a lot of poor jobs and pincushions, but poor jobs with capped bars.?ÿ?ÿSo choose your poison.
That don't cut it in the real world.......
You would really like to work in New York State. It is the wild west as far as monuments and recording maps. Some maps are filed, but most are not, only subdivisions are required to be filed, some properties are split by deed without a map. Only a few surveyors cap their pins. Pin cushions are common and deed descriptions are mostly written by paralegals, so the surveyor is usually unknown. Fees are low and the state board has no teeth.?ÿ?ÿ
In my State this is illegal for any purpose whatsoever.
About 3 years ago a utility entity took on the ardent task of placing some 250 miles of buried and about 250 miles of aerial coaxial cable for rural internet connections along the section line within the service boundary of one of my co-op clients.?ÿ The placing contractor contacted me concerning staking the R/W for the buried portions of the contract. Since I thought this was a legitimate request I put some time and effort into a proposal.
The contractor didn't like my six-figure estimate.?ÿ The project "manager" called me and explained they really didn't need someone the "survey" the entire 250 miles of buried lines; they just needed someone to stake and flag the "approximate" R/W line...I told him to call a lawn maintenance company or a cheap fence contractor.?ÿ End of conversation.
They proceeded with their project and it went on for about 18 months.?ÿ I would drive by their placing crews from time to time and could see they had no idea where the R/W was at...and apparently didn't care.
..didn't want a thing to do with that mess..?ÿ?ÿ
On several occasions, when two neighbors don't know where the lot line is and are splitting the cost of the survey I tell them that there is a good possibility that I will have an opinion that they don't like. I simply ask them to mark where they want the boundary to be in advance of my visit. That way, I can set the corners of the boundary as I see it, and map the location of where they see it. This makes for jolly good fun, destroys friendships and can lead to chainsaws and firearms. I don't recommend this approach.?ÿ
Some surveyors need caps marked
"Approximate corner"
"Pls 666"
🙂
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At some point would it not transform into a genuine property corner though the behavior of those who rely on it for orienting their works, improvements and perceptions.
This is one of those basic concepts that I still scratch my head over a little, what constitutes reliance and when and how does that reliance in and of itself establish a corner.
Surely building a common fence or structure is reliance but what about just knowing that the corner markers are there?
As to the thread topic, I have set approximate corners at the direction of multiple reputable Surveyors but never anything metal, and never for building from but more for looking at. When possible I like to use a lath only and pull it after it has served its temporary purpose.
What about flagging corners found in the course of field work, like of adjoiners and such? If you dig up a pin and shoot it to lock down your solution is it better to bury/hide it where you found it or to flag and rp it? If you flag it could you be liable for reliance of others not party to your survey?
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It seems RCW 58.04.007 clearly states that if there is a meeting of the minds as to the location an unknown or disputed line, than a survey and their signatures are all it SHOULD take to make that the true line. The Counties play around with the definition of "disputed" or ignore the statute altogether, of course.
But, given the language of the RCW, if two owners come to an agreement, have some written instrument indicating that agreement, and you show that line on a survey...it should be good.
So, King County essentially says it cannot happen. But, I have done two surveys showing such an agreement in the past year. Lawyer points to RCW, drafts the paperwork, owners sign, and I create a survey that shows their document, and stake it on the ground. Quit claim deeds are exchanged...I have no idea how it works out at the auditor's office.
My point is that if you showed the boundary, and where they think it is, then you have fulfilled the survey portion of that RCW. Sounds like a great idea!
At some point would it not transform into a genuine property corner though the behavior of those who rely on it for orienting their works, improvements and perceptions.
This is one of those basic concepts that I still scratch my head over a little, what constitutes reliance and when and how does that reliance in and of itself establish a corner.
It is a head scratcher, but let me talk while I think..
The courts tell us all property owners have the right to their "piece of the pie" when it comes to dividing lands.?ÿ Property owners have bona fide rights to assume their 300' wide lot is indeed 300' wide, as near as may be determined. And although a "goat stake" relied upon for years as a property corner might imply some color of title through possession or occupation (as in a case where a fence was built to an erroneous point), it doesn't necessarily automatically move the location of the proper corner that a precise survey would determine.
Yes, long term occupation from a bogus point can open up a real can o' worms in a legal sense. But that is generally extraneous to a surveyor's task of determining a property boundary by retracement.?ÿ Let the owners and the lawyers and the courts argue about the ownership..but the location of the original corner must be first determined.
And the head scratcher comes when a bogus corner is inadvertently set by the first surveyor of a parcel creation.?ÿ What weight does it hold??ÿ We could argue that point ad nauseum.?ÿ
My professional opinion is "a corner that was set in the wrong place will always be wrong until someone acts to make it right".
Some states have acquiescence statutes.?ÿ In Iowa if a definite line is treated as the boundary by both adjoiners for 10 years, in a dispute a court must find that is the boundary regardless of measurements.?ÿ This doesn't apply to things that obviously aren't intended as a boundary, such as fencing around a ditch or other obstacle.
I think from other comments that this is one of the shorter times and more extreme positions among the states regarding acquiescence.
Mention was made of title.?ÿ The way I see it, this statute has nothing to do with title and transfers no land.?ÿ Title is who owns it.?ÿ Boundary is where the limits of the property are, and if it is different from the deed numbers it still is not transferring area, just defining what area the title applies to.
Run across a few of these "approximate" corners/property line. Seem to me to be a little bit like being pregnant, either it is or isn't?ÿ