i work for a large firm in the northeast and the majority of our projects are high profile, large institutions and universities. While our current real estate boom has been very profitable for us, it has forced us to expand and place younger guys in charge of crews, since the talent pool has been thinned due to everyone being busy.
I've been preaching for years that traverse points can be beautifully marked by just a small paint dot, or maybe a circle (oooh a circle, nice, I'd say) and our seasoned chiefs who have had to go back and remove a giant triangle from the front steps of a 5 million dollar brownstone are on board.
But my younger guys love the paint... To the point where it's embarresssing... Picture a giant pink triangle with the traverse point number, obviously 69, at the base of the steps of the basketball arena, of a huge catholic institution, on opening night. Or a freshly set bound, up a half a foot, painted orange on all four sides, and a giant circle around it to let everyone know they did a good job, across from the street from a guy who doles out state survey contracts. (wasn't as big a deal, they had to go back and set it flush anyways, right?)
I could go on for a long time, sadly, I really could. And it if I didn't live it, I would laugh along with you. But I can't take another phone call that says "hey thanks for setting the monitoring points on the abuttors brownstone, but the flagging was enough, you didn't need to paint a square around it and label it 308".
I understand crap happens. We run 15 crews and I have seen it all, until the next guy gets his chance. And then he pushes my hairline back another .08'.
What I'm looking for is a solution. Like a child proof door knob. I need a paint that is temporary, Washable, and in the event that they don't enjoy my soapbox speech on how using keel won't cause cardiac arrest, they don't need two hours with a wire brush to remove it. We're too damn busy.
I've heard of chalk paint, but I don't see anything that has an inverted tip. And I am not sure how it does in the cold. Anyone use anything like this? Our temp swings are massive.
Please. The ACC finals are about 6 weeks away. If I turn on the tv and see a faded pink 69, I may just stick to watching bowling on espn2.
Thanks
Yes, all paint is messy and ugly. I call crews that use excessive paint the "blind" surveyors. A cool alternative would be pin flags (for lack of a better term). They are thin wires with a square flagging material attached. Available at the hardware store in various OSHA approved colors and very cheap. I use them mostly because I can pull them out when the project is done or move them to the corners that I have set.
Give the crew a pack of these ( http://www.2daydeliver.com/product_detail.php?id=SKUB00AECYJII&last_node=Chalk ), smile and walk away, let them think on it a bit, hopefully they grasp the concept. If that doesn't work flagging folded up works great as a underlay for nails in pavement, keel works well for concrete, if you need the point somewhat relocatable for a period of time (monitoring) try paint pens.
I've found the chalk paint sticks even longer than regular paint. So I don't recommend that.
How about just regular chalk? Chalkboard chalk.
I use a pink colored Markal paint pen for my control points. Very effective, limits the amount of mayhem that can be readily perpetrated.
Not trying to be a smart alleck but a stern talking to about when and when not to use paint and how much should clarify the confusion of anyone capable of running a crew. Maybe bump a guy down who can't follow the rules and everyone else will then pay attention
Mark Mayer, post: 406717, member: 424 wrote: I've found the chalk paint sticks even longer than regular paint. So I don't recommend that.
How about just regular chalk? Chalkboard chalk.
I use a pink colored Markal paint pen for my control points. Very effective, limits the amount of mayhem that can be readily perpetrated.
Agree with respect to the paint pens, I was thinking along the lines of minimal damage the crew could cause with that suggestion. Happy New Year folks!
I went through this years ago. Pink, orange, purple DayGlo fluorescent marking paints were driving old ladies crazy. Calling me, waiting on me just to chew my azz about how ugly the paint was. Had a Fire Chief in Hattiesburg Mississippi arrest us because we painted spots for BM's on fire hydrants. Day Glo Orange. I went to pure White paint. Think about it. Most of the time control point are off the side of the road pavement. What's on the side most of the time. A White stripe! My paint marks blend in. Doesn't trigger the anger button. Haven't had a call for over 25 years. The test! Had a young EIT I was doing a project with. I marked my points with White paint. He had some DayGlo purple paint in his truck, so he went back and re-marked my points with his paint later. The calls started coming in. People were waiting for us to show up the next day angry as hell wanting to know what was going on! OH NO! I saw what was happening! Like waving a Red Blanket in front of a pissed off bull. The DayGlo purple hit the anger button. His boss (my friend) called me wanting to know what the hell was going on! I told him. Said I'll fix it. Give me your paint! Go buy some flat black paint and cover all your paint markings. The angry calls stopped. I hope the now engineer learned his lesson. White blends in with the world. Goes un-noticed. Easy enough to spot if you know about where you need to look. One more thing. They make water base marking paints that are easier to remove. Some training classes and sheet showing how, what, and size to paint would go a long ways.
They have the O-TAGS.com advertisement at the bottom of the page here. It's not quick and dirty like a can of paint. It might give your firm a more professional look than the usual giant orange triangle.
I use paint pens. Blue.
Just paint the head of the spike or a ramset nail in concrete, if a drill hole run the pen around the rim.
Nice, discreet and for me the dense blue stands out.
If number a must then small letters 1/2" high at most.
Experienced operators find unmarked nails, spikes etc in concrete or bitumen without any highlight.
Somehow, with time the brain gets accustomed to or tuned into such (highly useful) objects.
It never ceases to amaze how another surveyor somehow drives a new mark within a body length of an existing one.
I really like the paint pens as well I usually carry a concrete scribe and 2 contrasting paint pen colors scribe an x fill it in and put a triangle around it. Also for control in concrete I really like Phillips head (I wish they made torx) tapcon screws just drill a 1/4" deep 3/8" hole then run the 5/32" bit down that and you have a nice blue countersunk control point that won't move (except frost heave)
What about keel?
My dad always used that. Like a crayon.
Me? I opt for the orange triangles! 😀
Florescent Pink Slips. Start with that kid you've been looking for an excuse to let go anyway. Stop buying the stuff. Somehow as a profession we managed to get along without it before.
mvanhank222, post: 406731, member: 8673 wrote: I really like the paint pens as well I usually carry a concrete scribe and 2 contrasting paint pen colors scribe an x fill it in and put a triangle around it. Also for control in concrete I really like Phillips head (I wish they made torx) tapcon screws just drill a 1/4" deep 3/8" hole then run the 5/32" bit down that and you have a nice blue countersunk control point that won't move (except frost heave)
Google "torx concrete screw" several options show up including one from Hilti that looks like what you're after. A quick dab from a paint pen and you'd be set.
If you use the Tapcon in a freeze area, does the hole fill up with enough water to crack the concrete? How fast do they rust away?
Thanks Steven I am going to check those out.I haven't seen any cracks around the tapcons on our multi year projects it is a pretty small hole with a pretty tight fit probably not water tight but close. 3 nice things about the screws are as long as your careful during instillation and don't scratch through the blue paint they don't rust that I have seen at least for 2+ years I started to use a manual screwdriver vs a drill driver to avoid scratching. The other nice thing is that they basically self center the rod tip with Phillips head I will check out if it is the same for torx. If there not in a spot where someone could trip over I typically don't countersink them. If you don't countersink they make a great point to level to as well. I have used 1" to 3" lengths but I could probably use all 1 1/2" as there seems to be little difference in stability based on length of screw.
We can't just stop buying paint. We're about 50% construction and it's essential for marking floor control.
I like the paint pen idea. do these have issues freezing?
Just find someone on the crew who can spray paint responsibly. A designated spray painter so to speak.
If people are not following instructions then changing the means is not going to change the end or intended result.
timdoggy, post: 406784, member: 12364 wrote: I like the paint pen idea. do these have issues freezing?
I can't say for certain. It doesn't stay freezing cold all that long around here. I have had some paint cans freeze but can't remember a pen freezing . Perhaps because they are usually carried in the vest pocket and tend to stay a little warmer?
I have never had a paint pen freeze I really like the sharpie oil based you can buy them at Walmart in the craft section or at Office Depot sometimes even Home Depot
We have addressed the means and opportunity to overuse paint. Now a word about motives....
1. Theory Y management says that people are willing to perform as management would like - if management clearly expresses it's expectations in a way that sticks. Maybe post several pictures of how you want points marked in a conspicuous place. Then show perpetrators of overuse pictures of their transgressions in private.
2. If your crew has good documentation of the control locations they will feel less need to mark it up so that it can't be missed while driving by. These days it is easy to produce a kml file which can be opened in Google Earth (presuming the project is on a grid system), producing a nifty control map.
