Are the attorneys supposed to provide me with anything more than the 50 year search per REBA? This commitment is missing 2 deeds from the 80s and starts in 1967 with quit claim not warrantee. I am used to finishing title reports for attorneys as they are never complete but this seems borderline negligent. I like my client and I don't want to drop the bombshell that I will need to spend several days researching because the provided title is so incomplete.
And of course they checked 20, professional liability. I have it, but I would have to use it if I simply use their commitment.[emoji35]
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You hit on one of my pet peeves. Incompetence in the title industry is everywhere. Add to that the short time frame they investigate compared to the time frame we routinely investigate. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!
I would call the attorney and give him the missed deeds. Give him the opportunity to do his job correctly. If the attorney is content with his half-ass job, your Client needs to know that the attorney missed some obvious deeds and you are not confident in his report. There are some attorneys that are better than others. I will often refer Clients to a good title attorney that understands their job, The Title Company determines how many years they will go back. They are interested in doing just enough to maximize their profits selling insurance. Surveyors on the other hand should have a higher standard. I consider a title report as a resource but not the final word. The attorney may share our liability but they don't take all of it. They are primarily selling insurance and not looking out for the Surveyor.
Ran into a new one the other day too. Dealt with 3 different law firms that were "high profile", whatever that means and there were right of way monuments set at one of the intersections for one of our property. Problem was there was nothing in the title commitment that mentioned the additional right of way. They tried to brow beat me into changing my survey, which I was not going to do. I finally ended up spending 6 hours on the phone tracking down the unrecorded, but executed deed with plat exhibit. Didn't hear a peep from them after that.
Had a project years ago in a subdivision. A quarter mile down the street was another subdivision of almost the same name. The commitment had every thing listed for the wrong subdivision plus the correct subdivision. Trying to get them to remove a dozen items that in no way had a connection to the subject tract was like pulling hen's teeth.
In another case I had to attempt to explain reality to a Philadelphia lawyer. The tract involved was bordered on one side by an alley and on another by a street that had both been vacated in the 1880's along with most of that particular subdivision to the small city. The problem was, as the city grew, it made sense to follow the original plan. So all sorts of properties in that area are described as being something like : Lot 2, Block 6 of the former Park Place Addition. In between all the deeded lots are the strips originally designed as streets and alleys. And, guess what, they look exactly like any other street or alley in the city, including stop signs, crossing signs, etc. That entire area had eventually been re-annexed into the city limits but there was no replat ever made. Crazy, right? The lawyer was contending the tract needed to acquire a second street access because what I was showing as that second street access had been vacated and, thus, did not count.
Sounds like you are doing the job that would be expected. Inform the attorney of any issue that you may have - they will get together with the title company and they will decide what to insure. You don't have to make the decision, just provide the information as you know it.
I have come to expect that the average title policy is not a exhaustive and fully researched document, so they need the surveyor to fill in the gaps, no pun intended. Good luck!
One of our local title companies is still local. What I have discovered is they still do the research in their own title plant and post recorded documents each week to their plant (no problem). We had the manager come to our local land surveyor chapter meeting, and he said all the other title companies are now using offshore research (India, Pakistan & the Philippines) which makes sense when I look at some of the wording title reports. It appears the translation program isn't quite doing the job so the wording flows nicely. I also back this up with a person I know lost her job at a major title company in California because the started using an offshore research company. That being said, it appears to me the newer title officers are not even reviewing the title report for accuracy once they get it. The last large ALTA I performed had 183 encumbrances on 5 parcels, 81 of which didn't effect the parcels, and the title officer couldn't provide me with many of the documents needed without a 2 week wait. I explained this to the attorney and after she reviewed it, she agreed that it was probably one of the worst title reports she had ever seen.
Howard Surveyor, post: 415722, member: 8835 wrote: We had the manager come to our local land surveyor chapter meeting, and he said all the other title companies are now using offshore research (India, Pakistan & the Philippines).
I want to see those folks across the Pacific Ocean run title in Calloway County, Kentucky, where they don't have any deeds online.
spledeus, post: 415698, member: 3579 wrote: Are the attorneys supposed to provide me with anything more than the 50 year search per REBA? This commitment is missing 2 deeds from the 80s and starts in 1967 with quit claim not warrantee. I am used to finishing title reports for attorneys as they are never complete but this seems borderline negligent. I like my client and I don't want to drop the bombshell that I will need to spend several days researching because the provided title is so incomplete.
And of course they checked 20, professional liability. I have it, but I would have to use it if I simply use their commitment.[emoji35]
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What is REBA?
If attorneys were providing me this info, I would expect it to go back to the Patent. Title companies here are only going back 30 years now...
Howard Surveyor, post: 415722, member: 8835 wrote: One of our local title companies is still local. What I have discovered is they still do the research in their own title plant and post recorded documents each week to their plant (no problem). We had the manager come to our local land surveyor chapter meeting, and he said all the other title companies are now using offshore research (India, Pakistan & the Philippines) which makes sense when I look at some of the wording title reports. It appears the translation program isn't quite doing the job so the wording flows nicely. I also back this up with a person I know lost her job at a major title company in California because the started using an offshore research company. That being said, it appears to me the newer title officers are not even reviewing the title report for accuracy once they get it. The last large ALTA I performed had 183 encumbrances on 5 parcels, 81 of which didn't effect the parcels, and the title officer couldn't provide me with many of the documents needed without a 2 week wait. I explained this to the attorney and after she reviewed it, she agreed that it was probably one of the worst title reports she had ever seen.
I have observed this decline in quality in the title industry too. 3 of the major firms here get their info from the same company in Malaysia, and they just forward the info without ever looking at it. It's ridiculous...
Jim in AZ, post: 415744, member: 249 wrote: What is REBA?
If attorneys were providing me this info, I would expect it to go back to the Patent. Title companies here are only going back 30 years now...
REBA = Real Estate Bar Association.
What is REBA?
An Okie red head that sings country!
foggyidea, post: 415754, member: 155 wrote: REBA = Real Estate Bar Association.
Thanks - must be a local thing. Don't have that here...
Their standard is 50 years or warrantee deed with no notice of title defect.
I am comfortable completing the research. I am less comfortable telling the client that the report is inadequate.
I was hoping I was missing something in the regs but it seems to reduce the attorney's responsibility further.
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I am always waiting for Title Commitments, as I tell the clients and when they contact the Title Company, they say they are waiting for me.
What gets me is when the Title Company calls me and asks me to change some reference to what they want.
My answer is that my survey reflects what I have relied upon as the best source to reconstruct the boundaries and to reference anything else is out of the question.
My survey is not related to your proving title, I am proving boundaries.
😎
A Harris, post: 415767, member: 81 wrote: I am always waiting for Title Commitments, as I tell the clients and when they contact the Title Company, they say they are waiting for me.
What gets me is when the Title Company calls me and asks me to change some reference to what they want.
My answer is that my survey reflects what I have relied upon as the best source to reconstruct the boundaries and to reference anything else is out of the question.
My survey is not related to your proving title, I am proving boundaries.
😎
Yeah but. We had an ALTA that was done. Our Condominium Plan of the property covered everything except for the two parcels with bad title. It was clearly adverse possession but the former owner just obtained an exception in the title policy and carried on as if he owned them. The title flaws were for little boathouse lots along the shore in the late 1800s and the area happened to accrete several hundred feet. The 5k S.F. lots became about 30k S.F. right through the Beach Club Pools and Private Beach.
We spent more time educating the Attorneys that titles do in fact exist from more than 50 years ago. At least that Commitment was complete to a bit more than the 50 year mark. They made it back to warantee deeds which did include the parcels with bad title.
[USER=3579]@spledeus[/USER]
kudos, I hope that you sent them an invoice that represented your exceedingly task of accomplishing their jobs for them............
When I take on a project and the client does not understand the need for research I give them a choice.
They can either allow me the freedom to look where is needed or hire an outside source that does research.
Most every Title Outlet have the resources to give a complete title sheet that would include every deed, easement and other recorded instrument from today back to the original grant for each tract of land under question.
Problem is that not every employee is privy to that resource and know of its importance.
Attorneys know, they simply do not want to work that hard. They expect it to be done for them and be sure that you get your payment for having to do so.
A Harris, post: 415931, member: 81 wrote: [USER=3579]@spledeus[/USER]
kudos, I hope that you sent them an invoice that represented your exceedingly task of accomplishing their jobs for them............
When I take on a project and the client does not understand the need for research I give them a choice.
They can either allow me the freedom to look where is needed or hire an outside source that does research.Most every Title Outlet have the resources to give a complete title sheet that would include every deed, easement and other recorded instrument from today back to the original grant for each tract of land under question.
Problem is that not every employee is privy to that resource and know of its importance.Attorneys know, they simply do not want to work that hard. They expect it to be done for them and be sure that you get your payment for having to do so.
Our registry burned down in 1827 making it tough to get back to the original proprietors divisions. The attorneys go back their 50. We go back further but it is rare to be able to track back into the 1700s.
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