I'm looking at an ALTA survey done in Dec 2013, with no monuments on the locus parcel, and no ties to the few that are shown on the plan. I was under the impression that even if item 1 in Table A isn't checked off, it doesn't relieve the surveyor from complying with the state minimum technical standards.
> .... complying with the state minimum technical standards.
Standards vary from state to state. Which are you in?
I'm consistently amazed/frustrated by the number of new plans I see (at least in my area) without a single monument shown. ALTAs, subdivisions, etc.. Until local BORs actually enforce things like this, it'll never change.
-V
You are correct - if your State standards require monumentation they must be set.
Personally speaking, I can not consider a survey with no monuments to be a survey - it defies logic.
ALTA survey with no monuments = Mortgage Survey
Any drawing that indicates property lines and does not set monuments IS NOT a Survey
I had a client come to me with a recent ALTA asking for a new survey. The boundary shown matched an older survey flat. The legend called for "monuments of record". We were barely into it when it became obvious no boundary survey had been done.
I contacted the Surveyor who produced the map. In our first call he was obviously stunned. I let him think on it and wrote him a letter. Things did not progress well. Entering the last stage of heading to the board he turned a 180.
Our rules on contacting others in these cases aren't perfect. This was one of a string of instances where they worked. The missing ingredient in most cases is a dedicated Professional willing to follow the process. Our Board cannot send investigators out asking realtors and developers for maps to review. Any chance at cleaning this up has to start with us.
My .02, Tom
> I'm looking at an ALTA survey done in Dec 2013, with no monuments on the locus parcel, and no ties to the few that are shown on the plan. I was under the impression that even if item 1 in Table A isn't checked off, it doesn't relieve the surveyor from complying with the state minimum technical standards.
It is common for ALTA surveys to be performed with no monumentation at the corners, at least in this area. (WA) The minimum state standards are for a record of survey, which is often what the client is trying to avoid when they do not check Item 1. (Also trying to avoid any additional costs associated with monumenting corners. Once corners are set, a ROS would be mandatory,) But, even for a recorded survey, I am not aware of any regulation requiring the setting of corner monuments. However, you would need to include enough information for another surveyor to follow in your footsteps, however light, in order for the survey to be worth anything, IMHO,
That being said, an ALTA has minimum standards, and there are minimum professional standards which should be followed. If there are NO physical monuments tied to the boundary, I would tend to think that there is some specific reason for this. One possible reason might be to limit the usefulness of that map to a future surveyor (there are many that think this way, search the forum for "Record of Survey".
Whether or not the map includes information on how the boundary is determined, the surveyor is certifying that the map correctly shows occupation, etc. That certification to the ALTA standard is what makes it not just a "mortgage survey".
Wile I can surmise reasons not to include ties to existing monuments, I would not produce and sign such an exhibit.
ALTA survey with no monuments = Mortgage Survey
> Any drawing that indicates property lines and does not set monuments IS NOT a Survey
There are many and sundry reasons someone might want a survey of their property with no monuments.
BUT, I would agree that semantically, we should not call anything without monuments a "survey". A survey, in this area, means a record of survey is to be completed. In areas with no recording, monuments are completely indistinguishable from the survey, since they are the ONLY record.
And, always, they are the MOST IMPORTANT record. That being said, clients quite often ask for boundary and occupation/topo on paper only, with no monuments set. I do not believe that performing this for them is outside of my professional ethics.
The specific case of the OP is a little different, in that shown found monuments have no ties to boundary, making them worthless and meaningless to the OP.
58.09 is definitely not limited to recorded surveys.
So tell me -
If there is a survey on record and a new surveyor is retained to provide an ALTA Survey, without Item 1 and he does not set monuments, what would prevent him from simply copying the information from the recorded survey and enter it into cad and produce the ALTA?
If he doesn't set corners; How you you even know he visited the property?
- We call those Drive-Bys or Windshield Surveys around here
> If he doesn't set corners; How you you even know he visited the property?
If his map shows that he set monuments, but you haven't seen them yourself, how do you know that he actually set them?
A fraudulent survey shouldn't be mistake for a legitimate survey on which no monuments were set.
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> A fraudulent survey shouldn't be mistake for a legitimate survey on which no monuments were set.
The setting of monuments provides a check and balance.
(esp in a mandatory recording state)
Otherwise Jack Legged Surveyor pumps out these Driveby Windshield Mortgage "Surveys" everyday and nobody knows any better.
Jacked Leg Surveyor only sends out poor quality paper prints to bank and nobody even knows what he did - and he never gets caught - fraudulent or not, it happens everyday (more than you know) ---- Who do you think got that ALTA Survey you bid on last week? It was Mr. Jack Leg Lowballer, that's who.
A 'legitimate survey where no corners are set' is not possible in many jurisdictions. I wouldn't work in one where it is...
You can absolutely do a survey w/o setting a monument, just because you don't pound a bar in the ground don't mean you didn't survey the property, especially an alta/acsm, you still hafta tie tons of stuff, you'll still visit every corner, but you ain't gotta pound a rod.
That being said, I always set them, even if it's not checked, if they don't want them, they get buried.
> I'm looking at an ALTA survey done in Dec 2013, with no monuments on the locus parcel, and no ties to the few that are shown on the plan. I was under the impression that even if item 1 in Table A isn't checked off, it doesn't relieve the surveyor from complying with the state minimum technical standards.
§663.17. Monumentation.
(b) When delineating a property or boundary line as an integral portion of a survey (survey being defined in the Act, §1071.002(6) or (8)), the land surveyor shall set, or leave as found, an adequate quantity of monuments of a stable and reasonably permanent nature to represent or reference the property or boundary corners. All survey markers shall be shown and described with sufficient evidence of the location of such markers on the land surveyors' drawing, written description or report.
According to our minimum standards we don't actually have to set the corners. That being said I prefer to set corners and/or reference corners.
It depends on the law in your State. Most of the Northwest any boundary survey will require all corners be found or set.
I believe one of the primary misunderstandings in these cases is that some land surveyors believe there is a difference between performing a boundary survey and performing an ACSMALTA survey. There is no such thing as an ACSMALTA survey.
When requested, you are performing a boundary survey and reporting it in accordance with ACSMALTA survey standards. And that is in addition to any state mandated reporting requirements that may exist for boundary surveys.
> I believe one of the primary misunderstandings in these cases is that some land surveyors believe there is a difference between performing a boundary survey and performing an ACSMALTA survey. There is no such thing as an ACSMALTA survey.
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Very well said.
In other words, a plat does not a survey make
:good:
That has always been my understanding also. Thanks
> 58.09 is definitely not limited to recorded surveys.
Its title:
"SURVEYS — RECORDING"
So, I think I am pretty safe saying that it is.
The statute certainly seem to assume that recording a survey is the normal course of action, but it does define when one is not needed, and many customers try their best to fall within that part of the statute.
(1) A record of survey is not required of any survey:
(a) When it has been made by a public officer in his or her official capacity and a reproducible copy thereof has been filed with the county engineer of the county in which the land is located. A map so filed shall be indexed and kept available for public inspection. A record of survey shall not be required of a survey made by the United States bureau of land management. A state agency conducting surveys to carry out the program of the agency shall not be required to use a land surveyor as defined by this chapter;
(b) When it is of a preliminary nature;
(c) When a map is in preparation for recording or shall have been recorded in the county under any local subdivision or platting law or ordinance;
(d) When it is a retracement or resurvey of boundaries of platted lots, tracts, or parcels shown on a filed or recorded and surveyed subdivision plat or filed or recorded and surveyed short subdivision plat in which monuments have been set to mark all corners of the block or street centerline intersections, provided that no discrepancy is found as compared to said recorded information or information revealed on other subsequent public survey map records, such as a record of survey or city or county engineer's map. If a discrepancy is found, that discrepancy must be clearly shown on the face of the required new record of survey. For purposes of this exemption, the term discrepancy shall include:
(i) A nonexisting or displaced original or replacement monument from which the parcel is defined and which nonexistence or displacement has not been previously revealed in the public record;
(ii) A departure from proportionate measure solutions which has not been revealed in the public record;
(iii) The presence of any physical evidence of encroachment or overlap by occupation or improvement; or
(iv) Differences in linear and/or angular measurement between all controlling monuments that would indicate differences in spatial relationship between said controlling monuments in excess of 0.50 feet when compared with all locations of public record: That is, if these measurements agree with any previously existing public record plat or map within the stated tolerance, a discrepancy will not be deemed to exist under this subsection.
(2) Surveys exempted by foregoing subsections of this section shall require filing of a record of corner information pursuant to RCW 58.09.040(2).
[2010 c 8 § 18004; 1992 c 106 § 1; 1973 c 50 § 9.]
Additionally, the following, "Monuments set by a land surveyor shall be sufficient in number and durability and shall be efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed in order to assure, together with monuments already existing, the perpetuation or reestablishment of any point or line of a survey." Leaves open to the professional interpretation of the surveyor the extent to which a boundary is monumented.
