Yes, the problem will never go away.
I've lost track of the number of tenders submitted where we can spend a couple of days completing all the "Technical Competence" documents, loose the tender with all the prices but one being grouped within, say 15-18,000 and the winner pricing 8,000. When we ask we get told we were first/second on the Technical, but it was awarded on price in the end. Four other firms will also, no doubt, have wasted a couple of days on the paperwork.
When, and if, you eventually see the result of the job you know why it was so cheap, but by then it is far too late. Worry is that that customer will do the same again, and again....
Accountancy shortsightedness always wins.
Pricing jobs is one of the toughest things I do. We're not supposed to ask what other surveyors charge (our board is serious about price fixing-for surveyors anyway). Client feedback is completely unreliable. Personally, I was very thankful for a local surveyor who told me he bid nearly twice what I did on a project. I raised my prices after that. It help if you are on good terms with the surveyor.
I wouldn't ever discuss pricing with another local land surveyor.?ÿ That could smell like "price fixing."
I wouldn't ever discuss pricing with another local land surveyor.?ÿ That could smell like "price fixing."
I think that the single greatest failing that this so called "profession" has is its failure and oftentimes outright refusal to talk prices. How are the younger surveyors going to learn if nobody talks about it. It needs to be discussed and talking about prices with your peers is not nor can it ever be considered price fixing so long as you do not agree to fix them. I will share my prices with my peers, not all of them as there are some I want nothing to do with. But I am of the opinion that the more communication among us the better. Hell some surveyors have no clue how to determine their overhead or what it costs to do a job. I have met many who based their prices on what their mentor was charging and their mentor was cheaper than a street walking whore so that means they are just as cheap and not making money living hand to mouth. Every retail place you go to and every restaurant you go to has prices listed, as does every grocery store and they do not require a secret decoder ring to figure out the cost.
Surveying can be a decent paying profession but so long as surveyors are in a?ÿ race to the bottom and fear someone is going to undercut them we are destined for the scrap heap of history because right now this profession does not charge enough money in order to pay enough money to attract young people to do the job.?ÿ
Surveyors run from this discussion like a sailor in the clap line after port call in Manila.?ÿ
I'd recommend you discuss expenses with your peers, reminding them of all the various expenses every surveyor has, and then just say that you need to make a living on a profit.?ÿ Don't mention prices.
Was it Arkansas where an association got in big trouble for talking about prices at a meeting?
I'd recommend you discuss expenses with your peers, reminding them of all the various expenses every surveyor has, and then just say that you need to make a living on a profit.?ÿ Don't mention prices.
Was it Arkansas where an association got in big trouble for talking about prices at a meeting?
And ever since that happened in Arkansas every surveyor has run away like a little girl whenever someone mentions anything about prices. It has paralyzed us from discussing the issue of money and as a result our salaries have atrophied and nobody wants to do this work anymore.?ÿ
Talk prices, please talk to your peers what it costs to do various jobs, share salary info for party chiefs and cadd techs and all manner of business expenses.
JUST DON'T AGREE TO FIX THE DARNED FEES!
If a gas station raises their cost to 3.50 per gallon what do you think the guy across the street will do? Sell his gas for 2.50 or sell his at 3.50 too?
I don't think publicly posting your rates is price fixing. As long as no negotiation or, as The Donald would say, "Collusion" is involved.
I happily pay more for items that I know of are higher value. The rub here is that the "boards" regulate that we all meet a minimum requirement and therefore should all provide the public the same product. Yet we are professionals that provide a product based on our own intellect and interpretation of records and evidence recovered. Do doctors have minimum standards? Do Engineers have minimum standards? Do Architects have minimum standards?
What does your Physician charge per hour? I know how much my Attorney charges me. Realtors openly expect 6%.?ÿ
0.02
N10,000, E7,000, Z100.00
PLS - IL, MO, AR, KS, MN, KY
The Arkansas case involved agreeing how much to charge for Lot surveys, the specific amount.?ÿ It wasn't something like I charge $X for a Lot survey, it was more like at a meeting they all agreed that a Lot survey would be a minimum of $XXX.
One time I asked my Dentist how she knows how much to charge for a filling or whatever...she said we go to Dental conventions and ask each other how much do you charge for a filling or a...you name it.
One time I asked my Dentist how she knows how much to charge for a filling or whatever...she said we go to Dental conventions and ask each other how much do you charge for a filling or a...you name it.
Yet surveyors get the vapors at any mention of prices! They get hysterical and run away with their arms flailing.
If merely talking about prices/rates were enough to get you in trouble for price fixing every Engineering, Architecture and Surveying firm larger than 1 person in my State would be grossly guilty because they've taken it a step further and actually written them down on paper and included them in proposals...I've seen them,?ÿthey exist!?ÿ I'm sure many of my competitors have seen mine.?ÿ It doesn't bother me, it's actually a good gut check that I'm keeping pace with the market.?ÿ
Well this topic always causes much rupturing of spleens amongst surveyors, I??ve noticed! I??ve been quoting jobs for many years, and it??s the most inexact science I??ve ever come across. One man??s easy breeze is another man??s stinky stench, you just have to back your methods and stick to your guns. ?ÿLike everyone else who??s been in this position, I??ve had potential clients tell me I was beaten by 50% or more; some of whom still want us to do the job (wtf? Provided we drop our price of course). I??m in Australia, but I gather USA is similar, it??s capatalism and if someone can beat you on price and still cough up a reasonable product then your goose is cooked. On that job anyway.?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿI think they might be providing a decent product and are working under the umbrella of an engineering firm.?ÿ
I??ve thought about saying something, but I honestly don??t know if they know how underpriced they are. ?ÿThey could double their prices and still be the low bidder.?ÿ
I don??t want to help in their ignorance?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
There's the crux.
They almost certainly know how low they are as compared to what it costs to do the job.?ÿ Many engineering firms use their survey department as loss leaders for mapping/design projects.?ÿ Since the mapping, and also usually the boundary are the first services rendered in such projects, they like to pull clients in with an attractive initial cost in order to make their profits in the design and construction management phases to follow once the client has the project firmly established with the engineering firm.
In a lot of cases, working under that model is more of a heartache for the surveyor in that firm than it is for you - if that surveyor is conscientious to do the work properly regardless of the budget.?ÿ It often happens that the engineer principal(s) of the firm pressure the survey manager to trim cost estimates of the pre-design surveying to impossibly low amounts.?ÿ If the surveyor objects, the engineer typically concede that they know the budget is too low for the work that needs to be done but that it's all part of a strategy to bring the full project in, which will be good for the company as a whole, so be a team player.?ÿ But then as the monthly billing statements circulate to the project managers and then to the principals, the survey manager typically gets hammered for his department's "losses".
If the company is one that doesn't seem to have a revolving door for survey managers, then the quality of the surveying is almost certainly well below any reasonable standard and they have either gotten very lucky or have become very adept at covering their mistakes during construction.?ÿ If the project gets built without the client perceiving that they've had to pay extra to make accommodation for bad work, then most would never know the difference between a great survey at a fair price and a garbage survey at any price.
You are courting trouble with any attempts to get your competitor to raise prices to reasonably cover even a minimally competent effort, either by convincing them directly or by making a complaint to the licensing board or elsewhere with the amount of fees being even hinted at as a basis for the complaint.
If you're going to do anything with regard to this competitor, wait and watch for the inevitable negligence which nearly always occurs in such firms.?ÿ Base your complaints on that.?ÿ Even then, you may get no traction unless the client perceives a problematic level of negligence.?ÿ Be careful there as well.?ÿ If you make efforts to convince a client of the presence of negligence by a competitor, that could easily backfire as an ethics complaint against you.?ÿ
Unfortunately, seeing and recognizing the presence of negligence and being able to provide sufficient proof of negligence are often quite different.