I hate the word 'Centerline'. Well, in most cases. Maybe I should say we need to watch what we call a centerline. I see this all the time but came across it again today.
Working on a project where there was a 50 wide street . A subdivision in 1981 showed the side of the street it was on (the East side), and the centerline 25 feet away, but did not show the other ROW line. Not really a problem so far. This centerline does not have monuments located on it. From what I can tell it has not been monumented in the past either.
The West side of the street is not subdivided (still to this day) just metes & bounds. Then, some time between then (1981) and 1995 the road gets widened, by 10 feet only on the metes and bounds side. So it was 50' and got widened by adding 10' onto the West side, So it is now 60'.
In 1995 a new subdivision happens to the South, and guess where the centerline is... 30 feet from both ROW lines.
Did the centerline move?
Good Post.
N
It can be confusing, I do have lots of highway jobs that have a defined "centerline" but it isn't centered very often. I even have one long stretch where the centerline was 40 feet from the east ROW and 60 feet from the west ROW and it ran that way for 20 miles.
ppm, post: 403288, member: 6808 wrote: I hate the word 'Centerline'. Well, in most cases. Maybe I should say we need to watch what we call a centerline. I see this all the time but came across it again today.
Working on a project where there was a 50 wide street . A subdivision in 1981 showed the side of the street it was on (the East side), and the centerline 25 feet away, but did not show the other ROW line. Not really a problem so far. This centerline does not have monuments located on it. From what I can tell it has not been monumented in the past either.
The West side of the street is not subdivided (still to this day) just metes & bounds. Then, some time between then (1981) and 1995 the road gets widened, by 10 feet only on the metes and bounds side. So it was 50' and got widened by adding 10' onto the West side, So it is now 60'.
In 1995 a new subdivision happens to the South, and guess where the centerline is... 30 feet from both ROW lines.
Did the centerline move?
I'm not sure that there has ever been a "centerline" ...
New centerline in addition to original maybe? The ones that makes me want to strangle someone are the 'project' centerlines that run in tandem with the ROW centerlines, some times only 0.1'-.2' apart and have no discernible relationship with each other.
I write 'center line' as two words. If it happens to be a a controlling line but not centered, I call it what it is (section line, block line, etc.).
If you can describe something to another person in a manner that they visualize it correctly, that's the CORRECT way to do it. It doesn't matter if one of us picky anal grey hairs says otherwise
ppm, post: 403288, member: 6808 wrote: In 1995 a new subdivision happens to the South...
The right-of way, on the north side of a line, doesn't have to be the same width as the right-of-way to the south of that line; I see this all the time.
Although I do think the right-of-way should be 25' east of the line an 35' west of the line; to maintain the history of the area affected; North of the line.
Williwaw, post: 403294, member: 7066 wrote: New centerline in addition to original maybe? The ones that makes me want to strangle someone are the 'project' centerlines that run in tandem with the ROW centerlines, some times only 0.1'-.2' apart and have no discernible relationship with each other.
When I worked for the highway department this was a sore spot. The survey boys always started by stationing the centerline of the right-of-way or possibly the section line and it was labeled "centerline of survey". All topo notes were tied to this alignment. Then the design boys got a hold of it and created an actual centerline of their proposed construction and called it the CRL or "construction reference line". After the mass dirt work was calculated the design boys would propose new R/W and delineate the limits with station and offset, from their CRL. The R/W department would then get a hold of it. And, being the clueless idiots they were, would write the descriptions and obtain new R/W using design's stationing, but from the section line and not the CRL. A ten mile long highway job with both "centerlines" intertwining, converging and then diverging, will make a man go stark raving mad.
I agree. I use the word centerline but mean baseline. It is worse now with cad than it was with hand drawn plans. Even the draftsman needed a baseline to start from. Not any more. Jp
paden cash, post: 403298, member: 20 wrote: stark raving mad...
You probably want to exchange Thailand Okieland...:p
Apparently; I'm stark raving mad too...
30' from each side could be called the physical centerline, but 35' from the North side is the legal centerline.
40+ years ago I bought the lots where I now live. 95% of all the borough lots are on one single filed map with all streets 50' wide. I found an iron pin 5' into my lot from the West. It was 25' from the physical centerline. I did some research and found that the 1 1/2 block subdivision to the West side of that street had only dedicated 15' from the filed map centerline. I dropped off a copy of that filed map at the office of the neighboring surveyor and he came back out and reset all the iron pins along that side, including putting the West corner pin of the adjacent lot right behind the curb return. I had not noticed those street side pins until I surveyed when the neighbor to the East sold me several lots.
The legal centerline is a forever right for the underlying fee owner. The street may be straight but the legal centerline can zig-zg quite a bit. I just finished a survey and the PQ and adjacent lots on both sides all have varying distances into the road right of way to their fee lines. Sometimes right of way width is referenced to a filed map (best), sometimes to a deed call or several conflicting deed calls, sometimes to a tax map, sometimes no reference at all. Calls are sometimes reinforced by iron pins, tolerably close to record, sometimes by pins at other acceptable distances and sometimes by multiple pins. I believe my max has been combinations of 3 multiple times. Railroads spikes, pins and concrete monuments in various arrays at C.L., in the road at the fee line, 16.5', 25', 30' and/or 33' from center.
My job is to report the facts and evidence that I know.
Paul in PA
My opinion is that we just need to not be so loose with the word centerline (or center line). As soon as any dedication happens it either: (1) moves the centerline, or (2) makes it no longer in the center.
Williwaw, post: 403294, member: 7066 wrote: New centerline in addition to original maybe? The ones that makes me want to strangle someone are the 'project' centerlines that run in tandem with the ROW centerlines, some times only 0.1'-.2' apart and have no discernible relationship with each other.
I hear you. Project centerlines are better called "design alignment" to highlight that it's a construction reference line, not a R/W reference.
My spell check detests centerline and always places a red line below it. That doesn't happen when I use center line.
centerline is a "word of art". It has been around a long time in the roadway design world. (not defending the term and agree there could be a better descriptor for the design-line, or baseline or profile line.
MightyMoe, post: 403291, member: 700 wrote: It can be confusing, I do have lots of highway jobs that have a defined "centerline" but it isn't centered very often. I even have one long stretch where the centerline was 40 feet from the east ROW and 60 feet from the west ROW and it ran that way for 20 miles.
Ran into this on an old State Highway Southwest of Casper. The center line was not centered where the travelway was constructed, 35 feet on one side and 65 feet(?) on the other side if I remember correctly. Every surveyor that did anything in a certain area split the pavement to define where they assumed the right of way was located, using 50 feet each side. A lot of bogus monumentation has taken place over the years. This particular section of the old roadway was turned over to Natrona County in the 1960's when the new highway was constructed.
ppm, post: 403288, member: 6808 wrote: I hate the word 'Centerline'. Well, in most cases. Maybe I should say we need to watch what we call a centerline. I see this all the time but came across it again today.
Working on a project where there was a 50 wide street . A subdivision in 1981 showed the side of the street it was on (the East side), and the centerline 25 feet away, but did not show the other ROW line. Not really a problem so far. This centerline does not have monuments located on it. From what I can tell it has not been monumented in the past either.
The West side of the street is not subdivided (still to this day) just metes & bounds. Then, some time between then (1981) and 1995 the road gets widened, by 10 feet only on the metes and bounds side. So it was 50' and got widened by adding 10' onto the West side, So it is now 60'.
In 1995 a new subdivision happens to the South, and guess where the centerline is... 30 feet from both ROW lines.
Did the centerline move?
Maybe.
Let's add some fun...
In NC, the call to the centerline of a road is considered a "natural" monument.
ppm, post: 403288, member: 6808 wrote: I hate the word 'Centerline'. Well, in most cases. Maybe I should say we need to watch what we call a centerline. I see this all the time but came across it again today.
Working on a project where there was a 50 wide street . A subdivision in 1981 showed the side of the street it was on (the East side), and the centerline 25 feet away, but did not show the other ROW line. Not really a problem so far. This centerline does not have monuments located on it. From what I can tell it has not been monumented in the past either.
The West side of the street is not subdivided (still to this day) just metes & bounds. Then, some time between then (1981) and 1995 the road gets widened, by 10 feet only on the metes and bounds side. So it was 50' and got widened by adding 10' onto the West side, So it is now 60'.
In 1995 a new subdivision happens to the South, and guess where the centerline is... 30 feet from both ROW lines.
Did the centerline move?
The obvious problem isn't referring to the centerline of the right-of-way, but neglecting to mention the width of the right-of-way. That is a very easy fix. Or, in the case of state highways where the centerline is shown upon a specific plan, it would be something along the lines of "the centerline of the right-of-way of Ranch-to-Market Highway 666 as shown upon the District Engineer's right-of-way map dated July, 1963 on file in the Texas Department of Transportion and Other Stuff" with extra credit given for reference to the instrument of record by which the right-of-way was acquired in the area of interest.
