All the statute appears to state that "if the land surveyor knows....", but can the attorney use the old description and fall within the law in Ohio?
> Wow, the laws in your state are nothing like any I work in. Surveyors or current legals are not required for any transaction.
>
> While I believe your state might be a bit over the top in terms of requirements, it would certainly stop the attornies and title officers, and 'smart' clients from creating their own legal descriptions.
Professional Land Surveyors of Ohio and the County Engineer's Association worked for years to have the original rules adopted in 1980 and subsequent laws adopted to begin cleaning up the descriptions of record. The Ohio Board of Registration issued a official opinion (PDF) in 2009 stating ". . . the preparation of a metes and bounds legal description is clearly the practice of surveying." The interpretation of this is that for fee transfers only a licensed surveyor may prepare a metes and bounds descriptions and the description must comply with the previously cited rule.
> All the statute appears to state that "if the land surveyor knows....", but can the attorney use the old description and fall within the law in Ohio?
Maybe, depending on local standards that Ohio Revised Code requires each county to adopt and publish. The Ohio Department of Transportation maintains a web page of County Conveyance Standards for consultant reference. Some counties require that any change in the existing record description be based on a new survey. The description must be submitted in advance of deed preparation (1 week before transfer in some areas) and have an attached plat of survey with a current original signature and stamp of the preparing surveyor.
In our cookie-cutter society
most counties either included the Ohio laws into their regulations, or they referred to the Ohio laws as if they were within the county regulations.
I don't even know of a single county that established conveyance standards without one or the other form of "inclusion".
I have personally only seen a few non-compliant "recycled" descriptions get through in Ohio.
And only in cases in rural counties where the farm was probated and conveyed in unsplit and un-exceptioned condition to heirs within the family.
Even then, the "Approved for Transfer" stamp had a "New Survey Required at next Transfer" stamp right next to it, indicating the end of the line for that description.
In our cookie-cutter society
Agreed and there are a few that get very detailed as the following excerpt from one rural county:
> C. Courses
> 1. It is preferred for clarity that each course of a new metes and bounds description be a separate paragraph and all courses must be stated in a clockwise direction from the point of beginning to the point of termination for the subject description.
Standards of another county state that each course will begin with specific wording and cite line monuments between corners in a specific way.
RETIRED69
You say "For all I know half my set pins and found monuments have been knocked-out or disturbed and who knows if there are encroachments, unwritten easements, or potential claims of adverse possession . . . after 25 years."
So are you saying that you won't prepare a description without performing a survey? I certainly understand being concerned with encroachments related to an old survey map, but with a description too?
RETIRED69
Absolutely . . . you say otherwise?
That's my name and seal that goes on that recorded document and I want to know what's on the property and more importantly the property lines before I sign it away.
You do what you want . . .
RETIRED69
25 years?
I have seen descriptions here in Ohio rejected for being out of date which weren't 25 days old.
Betcha can't even guess why (no fair answering if you are a Buckeye).
Every state is different on this topic. Sometimes very different. It's not a question of right or wrong, or which is better. It's about knowing how to get a legally state compliant professional product out the door to the client.
I usually give them the message that the Title Company has a copy of all the surveys they have worked on and are the only ones to have a copy of what they are searching for.
Locally, there are a few attorneys and realtors that keep a database of property descriptions and drawings from eons ago.
A copy of one turn up ever so often in the possession of someone that purchased property based upon those surveys. Last year a guy showed up with a had drawn sketch by a surveyor in the early 1940s and ask if I could find his monuments.
Turned out it was a turn key from a Title Company, with the most disclaimers I've ever seen in a policy.
B-)
For anyone who wonders why this is an issue, spin the clock forward a bit.
Assume for a moment that after the deed is recorded someone discovers some relevant fact that occurred after your survey of 25 years ago. Would that attorney hesitate to sue you for issuing a professional product that harmed his client when you should have known better than to issue the product.
The answer to that one is the attorney wouldn't hesitate for one second. They are obligated to ask us to do foolish things. The good news is we are not obligated to comply with such requests. Just say No.
Larry P
I find this all very confusing
Clearly a case of different States working with different Statutes.
Say I do a survey and slice a large tract into 10 different pieces. Here, I can do that and it doesn't even count as a subdivision. Also, once I create the description for each of those 10 tracts, they are good as gold. There is no demand that a transfer occur on any of those tracts within a specific time frame. In fact, it would be common for one of the tracts to remain with the original client for many years while the others are conveyed away at different times. Our surveys are filed, including the pertinent descriptions, for view by the public. Any future owner COULD transfer one or more of the tracts I surveyed using the description provided on the plat.
I find this all very confusing
If you worked in Ohio for a couple months it would all make sense. Each county is required to come up with it's own standards for property transfer that meet or exceed the state minimum requirements. I primarily work in 5 counties who have slightly differing views on surveys/conveyance. A couple won't take a deed for transfer with more than 5 exceptions, others 3. One county requires if the parent tract is left with under 20 acres that it must be surveyed too. All new descriptions must be accompanied with a survey drawing (everyone seems to call them different things). One county will let family quit claim any crappy description as long is it stays in the family. A couple require a new survey/description for any tract there might be a question of location, closure whatever, no matter if it's just being left to an heir or not.
All in all it's not too bad of system. After helping with surveys in numerous Mid-Atlantic and Southern states it always felt good to come back. Probably because Ohio is where I started and what I'm most used to. Most all the counties have an excellent records and are very helpful if you haven't surveyed in the county before. You hardly ever find pins from the last 50 yrs that there is not a matching survey for except in one county that doesn't "file" (free) they record ($40-$44) their surveys. You do not have to turn your re-tracement surveys in if they were not meant for transfer. We always turn a survey in to the county (unless asked not to) if we set a pin, even though it has our cap on it, so you know where it came from and why but some others just hand a copy to their client. It's a personal choice.
But would the description not read --- as per survey of xxx, PLS dated XX XX, 1985. And of course on the top of the page would be the original date that it was written (typed). Is that not the same as copying an older survey from a deed book and reusing it?
Thanks for further explanation
I'm not saying Ohio is correct and Kansas is not or vice versa. I can definitely see the benefits. It's merely a matter of Kansans being as anti-regulation as any people you can find. So that is the survey requirement, or lack thereof, with which we live. When they show red states versus blue states they make Kansas a bit more red.
I wish we could all reach back in time so simply . . .
Fact is, I would be signing the document in 2013 knowing full well that the data used for my description is far from up to date. If we were talking a year or so, this might be a more tenable situation . . . but 25 years. This is approaching half of my lifetime.
Also, there's an implication that goes with this that I(when I sign & seal this in 2013), am in agreement(in 2013), of what's shown on the 1988 survey. You might say, not so, but if it were to benefit litigation, I'm sure most attorneys would yeh . . . uhu-so . . . and I'm sure most attorneys would say "if you thought you shouldn't have, then why did you". It's no skin off their bones if I want to do something stupid that benefits their client.
Not too much unlike signing an "owner's affidavit", for old surveys. One way or another there's an implication that you "know", the product you're signing/sealing has not changed between the original and today's date.
And let's not forget, there's a statute of limitations on most everything . . . either legislative or by precedents in court. So, let's assume that something in 1988 could've been "problematic"(I'm not aware of any issues), in 1988. Surely, after 25 years limitations in one form or another has left me with a degree of protection.
When I sign this document in 2013, IF THERE WERE things that might've been "problematic", in 1988 . . . I might've moved the time barrier forward.
Plain and simple . . . it would be absolutely ridiculous to re-sign & seal a 1988 survey in 2013 without the benefit of rechecking the survey on the ground.
> But would the description not read --- as per survey of xxx, PLS dated XX XX, 1985. And of course on the top of the page would be the original date that it was written (typed). Is that not the same as copying an older survey from a deed book and reusing it?
That's my thinking. I occasionally get a request to writea description from an old survey we did. I will put a similiar note at the end of the description and then sign and date it with a current date. This is why. If I don't write the description, some hack lawyer, or his paralegal will, and there is no telling what it will look like after they get done with it. At least the way I do it, a professional with experience writing descriptions is writing the description.
If a lawsuit ensues for some reason involving the property and the "new" . . . "old" . . . description that the courts also see it that way.
In Ohio the description must be based on a current survey. What's "current"? Certainly "NOT" a 25 years old survey.
Now . . . someone realistically tell me how a 25 years old(or even a 5 years old), survey is "current".
I have no interest in selling my soul for a "ancient", 25 year old survey.
In Florida, I think that any description that someone could write on a bar napkin can be filed (as long as you pay the doc stamps). Now getting a permit to build anything on that parcel is another matter...
The Bow Tie Surveyor
Wish that it was written that way in Idaho. Would save a lot of headaches.
