Attorney got hold of me yesterday about a survey I did in 1987 and another part in 1993. :excruciating:
Evidently the client never did anything with the survey and the attorney wants/expects me to re-issue a legal description for 144 acres of the 165 acres. They used the description for the 21 acres parcel.+o(
I trying to make him understand that I can't really do that without re-surveying the property, or at the least verifying facts that I show on the original survey and making sure things haven't changed . . . such as potential claims of adverse possession and such.:'(
He doesn't seem to understand . . . or care . . . at this point I don't think I care either...
:pissed:
Stick to your guns! He will call a few other surveyor's and realize that having you do it will be cheaper. That's all they care about. DO NOT give it away.
Why doesn't he merely use the parent description less the 21 acres you cut off?
Because that would imply intelect from a law school "grad-e-ate". Such implications are a danger to society and good order. :-O :'(
now now, there are some smart attorneys out there. i know one, he quit law and became a realtor.
> He doesn't seem to understand . . . or care . . . at this point I don't think I care either...
Oh...I think he understands. He is just trying to passive aggressive you into doing what he wants. For free. He represents a client, not the public.
I don't understand "re-issue a legal description".(?)
> I don't understand "re-issue a legal description".(?)
Probably fresh copy with a new date, signature and seal.
B-)
"Why doesn't he merely use the parent description less the 21 acres you cut off?"
:good:
Why don't you write this for him and charge him $1,000?
I'd guess that the attorney wants the survey for use in a conveyance.
From Ohio minimum standards:
(E) When the surveyor knows a new description is to be used for a fee transfer, the surveyor shall base the description on a current or updated survey of the property.
If this is to be the first use of the prior survey for conveyancing, it's "new".
without paying, I would tell him "to BITE me".
There were three descriptions previously made with the survey map.
Two were used for transactions back in the late 80's, early 90's.
Therefore . . . as he said, the survey is "on file" with the county. In Ohio this simply means they have a copy of the survey in a file.
My contention is I will not release a new dated description based on 25 year old data and not knowing what actually exists now.
For all I know half my set pins and found monuments have been knocked-out or disturbed and who knows if there are encroachments, unwritten easements, or potential claims of adverse possession . . . after 25 years.
Well . . . he's evidently miffed and rather perturbed that I will not just hand over a new copy of the legal description.
With my foot problem, along with my doctor's orders not to play in the cold(heart), I think I'm inclined to let this go for good.
Let him stew . . . let him do whatever he wants . . . but I'm not going to do something stupid over it.:pissed:
What's wrong with the old description? Around these parts the descriptions may be several hundred years old.
"Bounded on the north by Seth Nickerson, the East by Odeb Brooks, the South by Obed Brooks Jr. and the West by Seth Nickerson, containing 3 acres be it more or less." Now, those three guys all died before the War of Northern Aggression and they owned so many properties that you need to now start surveying the abutters, and the abutters to the abutters!!
I'm so very glad ....
you got the name of the "recent unpleasantness" correct!
(E) When the surveyor knows a new description is to be used for a fee transfer, the surveyor shall base the description on a current or updated survey of the property.
Are you saying you believe a 25 year old survey would qualify in 2013, as "current", for a re-issue/re-certification, of a legal description based on that old information?:-S
I don't think the BOR intends for surveyors to get into a habit of using old surveys in a carte blanche(sp), aspect for drafting newly certified legal descriptions.
I can see it now . . . without re-surveying the property, or at least doing a thorough "recon", getting a call in a month or so asking me about pins that might be missing or other clouds that might've come to issue in the past 25 years.
> "Why doesn't he merely use the parent description less the 21 acres you cut off?"
>
> :good:
>
> Why don't you write this for him and charge him $1,000?
Little problem of Ohio rules of practice and I suggest the content of this post be forwarded to the attorney in question. I would also ask him to sign a hold harmless letter telling me to violate this rule. I would state that his letter will be forwarded, with the rule cited below, to the Ohio Bar Association for their review.
Following is from the Ohio Administrative Code (Rules) and adopted by the Ohio Board of Registration. I have added emphasis to the relevant section (E) in the part of the rules quoted below.
(A) When a surveyor is called upon to prepare a new description, either to replace an existing description which is inadequate or to create a new piece of property, said description shall include the following items:
(1) Sufficient caption so that the property can be adequately identified.
(2) A relationship between the property in question and clearly defined control station(s).
(3) The basis of the bearings.
(4) A citation to the public record of the appropriate prior deed(s).
(5) The surveyor’s name, Ohio registration number and date of writing and/or survey.
(B) A metes and bounds description shall include, in addition to paragraph (A) of this rule:
(1) A description of the boundary monument used as the initial point of the description.
(2) A series of calls for successive lines bounding the parcel, each of which specifies:
(a) The intent in regards to adjoiners or other existing features.
(b) The direction of the line relative to the direction of the basis of bearing.
(c) The length of the line.
(d) A description of the boundary monument (or reference monument) and whether found or set to identify the end of the particular line.
(e) All curved lines shall indicate the radius, central angle, curve length, chord bearing, chord length and direction of the curve.
(f) The reported boundary data shall meet the closure requirements of paragraph (C) of rule 4733-37-04 of the Administrative Code.
(3) The area of the parcel.
(C) Descriptions other than metes and bounds descriptions may be a reference to a recorded survey plat or a parcel on a recorded survey plat and shall include sufficient and adequate legal and technical wording so that the property can be definitely located and defined.
(D) A statement shall appear indicating that either: the description was made in accordance with a recent survey and the date thereof, or the description was made based on a previous survey, of a certain date, and date of description, or the description was not based on a survey.
(E) When the surveyor knows a new description is to be used for a fee transfer, the surveyor shall base the description on a current or updated survey of the property.
R.C. 119.032 review dates: 08/18/2008 and 08/18/2013
Promulgated Under: 119.03
Statutory Authority: 4733.07
Rule Amplifies: 4733.20
Prior Effective Dates: 5/1/1980; 11/1/2003
Hey, we have descriptions like that too!
Since they don't meet minimum standards in Ohio as descriptions for conveyance, they cannot be a part of a conveyance, and can't be recorded.
20-26 YEARS OLD SURVEY>Retired69
Nah, I am not saying that it's a current survey at all. In my state new descriptions are not required, unless you're dealing with the Land Court or the property has been divided (in which case a new plan is needed)
I'm not sure where you're located but I guess it's not MA. Regardless, Is there a requirement for the attorney to provide a new description or can they rely on the old one? Regardless of the age of the survey?
Both you and Carl Zeiss beat me to the citation. I would still forward the section of the rule we all quoted to the attorney and advise him that you are considering reporting his pressuring you to the Ohio Bar Association. Don't mention the local Bar Association unless it is to remark that you may mention to the state level organization you figured the locals would sweep it under the rug. As we have both mentioned here you do have past experience with that sort of thing happening.
Wow, the laws in your state are nothing like any I work in. Surveyors or current legals are not required for any transaction.
While I believe your state might be a bit over the top in terms of requirements, it would certainly stop the attornies and title officers, and 'smart' clients from creating their own legal descriptions.