This brings about another question Williwaw: "I cut my teeth in paper space using LDD and for some applications it's really the only way to go, but for 95% of what I do every day the pros of doing everything model space out weight the cons once I have the scale worked out. Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform. Working in model simplifies things, until it doesn't, and then I switch. Multiple sheets, index sheets, not problem in model space. Both ways work and I often use paper space to check things over before hitting 'plot'. But, whatever floats your boat.
And BlitzBob, it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough."
What do you allow to go to your clients? My laid off this week Project Manager/direct supervisor taught me that the clients do not need to see any anything more than what is absolutely necessary to prevent questions coming up that call into question our work.
Q3. With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything? Do you have a master drawing that you keep at your office with everything, and only show what's needed to the client via XREF or copy/pasting techniques?
And thank you all for the discussion! I really respect our RPLS so that's why I was wanting more opinions than my own. To know that it's doable is a great relief. To know that it will likely be time consuming on my part is important as well. I've been asking our RPLS to show me how he works through the plat process and the opportunity to do that has not come up yet, and I expect it will teach me why he hates paperspace with viewports so much.
I did do the scaling of borders in model space for a few years while at a job working only with lot and block title surveys. But with the current job of oil and gas surveys now, usually over a mile in length, it's all been paperspace with viewports and multiple Layout tabs, and I can appreciated the simplicity of scaling the contents of the viewport, the beauty of the DVIEW - Twist options, and the lifesaver command of CHSPACE. (I'm also a big fan of VPMAX & VPMIN.)
And I have no clue how comfortable our RPLS is with XREFs. If he is, then I think I will try the drafting of plats in model space. As it stands currently, the fastest way possible is how it's going to get done (via paperspace and viewports), because the boss is looking at the bottom line cost of operating, and neither I nor the RPLS are safe from budget cuts.
paden cash, post: 398921, member: 20 wrote: We use to use paper space and it's really neat. But the employee that knew how to set it all up left and we went back to model space...:(
I know there is always new things to learn. That being said, if you would want help with re-setting up the paper space, I would be happy to share my knowledge. 🙂
AMM_The_Drafter, post: 398991, member: 9770 wrote: I know there is always new things to learn. That being said, if you would want help with re-setting up the paper space, I would be happy to share my knowledge. 🙂
I appreciate that, I really do. I would take you up on it but it was really meant as a joke. We use MS and their comparable feature is called "SHEET MODEL" (v DESIGN MODEL). It doesn't work exactly like paper space in AutoCAD, but similar.
AMM_The_Drafter, post: 398989, member: 9770 wrote: This brings about another question Williwaw: "I cut my teeth in paper space using LDD and for some applications it's really the only way to go, but for 95% of what I do every day the pros of doing everything model space out weight the cons once I have the scale worked out. Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform. Working in model simplifies things, until it doesn't, and then I switch. Multiple sheets, index sheets, not problem in model space. Both ways work and I often use paper space to check things over before hitting 'plot'. But, whatever floats your boat.
And BlitzBob, it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough."
What do you allow to go to your clients? My laid off this week Project Manager/direct supervisor taught me that the clients do not need to see any anything more than what is absolutely necessary to prevent questions coming up that call into question our work.
Q3. With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything? Do you have a master drawing that you keep at your office with everything, and only show what's needed to the client via XREF or copy/pasting techniques?And thank you all for the discussion! I really respect our RPLS so that's why I was wanting more opinions than my own. To know that it's doable is a great relief. To know that it will likely be time consuming on my part is important as well. I've been asking our RPLS to show me how he works through the plat process and the opportunity to do that has not come up yet, and I expect it will teach me why he hates paperspace with viewports so much.
I did do the scaling of borders in model space for a few years while at a job working only with lot and block title surveys. But with the current job of oil and gas surveys now, usually over a mile in length, it's all been paperspace with viewports and multiple Layout tabs, and I can appreciated the simplicity of scaling the contents of the viewport, the beauty of the DVIEW - Twist options, and the lifesaver command of CHSPACE. (I'm also a big fan of VPMAX & VPMIN.)
And I have no clue how comfortable our RPLS is with XREFs. If he is, then I think I will try the drafting of plats in model space. As it stands currently, the fastest way possible is how it's going to get done (via paperspace and viewports), because the boss is looking at the bottom line cost of operating, and neither I nor the RPLS are safe from budget cuts.
" With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything?"
NO. Organize things using LAYERS - if you don't want to plot something freeze the appropriate LAYERs when you plot, or set those layers you do not want to plot to not plot. Its extremely simple. If I am sending the drawing file itself to someone I use the first method (frozen LAYERs), and then use WBLOCK to export only the visible entities to a new drawing.
There is nothing very time consuming to it - I would say less than 5 minutes/sheet for set up time.
XREF's are simple - you are just bringing in an unalterable copy of a master drawing into each sheet drawing.
BlitzkriegBob, post: 398945, member: 9554 wrote: A1: Yes, twenty-five years ago, with no viable alternatives, I did it the way that Jim in Az describes.
A2: Again, the way that Jim in Az describes. Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe), or really any new commands from the last twenty-five years.Here's my advice. Quit your job. If you're serious about your career, nothing good will come from you staying at a place that requires you to use outdated drafting methods. If you came in for an interview with me as a CAD manager and explained that was your SOP, that would kill your chances right then and there.
Do the field crews use a dip needle to locate pins? Do they still set up a baseline, lay down a cloth tape, and slap 90s to locate improvements?
I disagree with your career advice, Her goal is to become an RPLS not a CAD Manager, as an RPLS you have to know a lot about a lot of difference fields, the legal aspects, how to do the fieldwork, research, etc... Some people are expert in all of the fields, some are average in all, some excel at just a few areas. I am a boundary expert, not a CAD expert.
If she is at a company where she can learn from the RPLS, some days work in the field others do research, and draft that is a plus.
What are you going to say to her, Oh you understand survey work, you know who to draft, but sorry I can not take half a day to show you how to use viewport. I want my CAD guys to understand the importance of the boundary, not to change the boundary to match the drawing like an Architect firm would do. It is difficult to find a great drafter that wants to do Survey work, and understands the importance of a line being off 0.30 tenths.
You may be on the cutting edge of technology today, but in 20 years you may still be doing your drafting the same way, because you know how to do it that way and you feel comfortable doing it that way.
[USER=249]@Jim in AZ[/USER]
I'm not sure what part of my post offended you, but whatever it was, I offer my sincere apology. I only brought your name up because I felt the way you explained how you do your work is the best way to do what the OP was asking.
[USER=7154]@Scott Ellis[/USER]
I don't see anywhere where she talks about wanting to be an RPLS, but even if that is her goal, she already knows how to use paper space. It is her boss that doesn't understand how it works.
For everyone else,
I know I get long-winded sometimes. I was trying to be more brief with my answer. My longer answer would be that I have done most of my work in Houston, and I know how volatile the O&G business can be. Layoffs are always around the corner, and the first day you don't have enough to keep you busy is the day you're out the door. For that reason, you have to have the skills to be able to find another job. You would be hard pressed to find a company that does all their work in model space. I've worked at many firms in several states over the last twenty-five of my 35 years in this business, and not a single one worked in model space once paper space became available. Of course I don't work for mom & pop companies. I make more money than they would want to pay me, so perhaps it's different at those places.
[USER=9770]@AMM_The_Drafter[/USER]
Hopefully you understood where I was coming from, and where I was going. I am a drafter too. I've done surveying and civil engineering work for longer than I care to remember. My dad was a drafter. I wish I had a dollar for every time I had a surveyor or an engineer tell me that my dad was the best drafter they ever knew. I started off hand drafting, progressed to working CAD and cogo programs on mainframes, and was lucky enough to start working with Autocad 2.5 back in 1986 I believe. I'm not really called a drafter any more. I've been out in the field, starting off as the bucket guy on a five man crew all the way to a party chief. I've been an inspector on construction projects. I've been a survey technician (the only tech in a company with 7 RPLS on staff that worked my own projects, including boundary resolutions). I've been a designer. Now I'm mostly called a senior designer/cad manager. I've trained survey crews how to use F2F. I've trained surveyors, both RPLS and party chiefs, how to use CAD. I've trained engineers how to use CAD. I've trained draftsmen who knew how to use CAD but were getting left behind because of their fear of embracing new methods. I've mentored other senior designers and survey techs who are always looking for better ways to get jobs done.
Only you know what your career goals are. Whatever they are, I firmly believe you should strive to make yourself better. I am never satisfied with every aspect of how I do my job. I am constantly looking for ways to improve. If you want to be able to sell yourself, especially as someone who works in a volatile field, you have get better every day. Learn to become a leader. Take that RPLS by the hand and be a teacher. I remember my RPLS mentor, and how afraid he was of change. He taught me most all I know about surveying, even though I didn't take his advice and get my license before Texas changed their rules. In return, I taught him how to be better working within CAD. That is what I look for when my boss asks me about hiring CAD staff. I'm just a working guy. That's all I will ever be. Hopefully you can be something better!
Best regards,
Bob Garcia
Dan Patterson, post: 398916, member: 1179 wrote: I don't like the idea. I have a lot more going on in model space than what is shown on the sheet. Usually there is line work that extends beyond the sheet as well. What do you do? Trim it? Seems silly and antiquated to me since the software has the capability to do it a better way. Also for proposed info like on a subdivision I will use the vport layer controls. I can have one drawing with multiple sheets. If you go in model space it looks pretty messy, but when you tab through the sheets there are different things on/off on each one.
I'm lost on that one, why would you need to trim anything?
I never have lines going right to the border. I always have them stop about 1/4" inside the border on the paper. Maybe it's just a preference thing....
Dan Patterson, post: 399020, member: 1179 wrote: I never have lines going right to the border. I always have them stop about 1/4" inside the border on the paper. Maybe it's just a preference thing....
I usually don't, but if one passes under the border like a row line I just plot it that way and the process of plotting makes anything passed the border vanish anyway, I do both model and paper space, it's just way faster to do a model space setup with a simple drawing. When there are a bunch of sheets then....
Use Layout/Paper space....it will save you time AND $$$.
My thought is to embrace it because it's not going away anytime soon. My $0.02.
T. Nelson - SAM
BlitzkriegBob, post: 399017, member: 9554 wrote: [USER=249]@Jim in AZ[/USER]
I'm not sure what part of my post offended you, but whatever it was, I offer my sincere apology. I only brought your name up because I felt the way you explained how you do your work is the best way to do what the OP was asking.
[USER=7154]@Scott Ellis[/USER]
I don't see anywhere where she talks about wanting to be an RPLS, but even if that is her goal, she already knows how to use paper space. It is her boss that doesn't understand how it works.
For everyone else,
I know I get long-winded sometimes. I was trying to be more brief with my answer. My longer answer would be that I have done most of my work in Houston, and I know how volatile the O&G business can be. Layoffs are always around the corner, and the first day you don't have enough to keep you busy is the day you're out the door. For that reason, you have to have the skills to be able to find another job. You would be hard pressed to find a company that does all their work in model space. I've worked at many firms in several states over the last twenty-five of my 35 years in this business, and not a single one worked in model space once paper space became available. Of course I don't work for mom & pop companies. I make more money than they would want to pay me, so perhaps it's different at those places.
[USER=9770]@AMM_The_Drafter[/USER]
Hopefully you understood where I was coming from, and where I was going. I am a drafter too. I've done surveying and civil engineering work for longer than I care to remember. My dad was a drafter. I wish I had a dollar for every time I had a surveyor or an engineer tell me that my dad was the best drafter they ever knew. I started off hand drafting, progressed to working CAD and cogo programs on mainframes, and was lucky enough to start working with Autocad 2.5 back in 1986 I believe. I'm not really called a drafter any more. I've been out in the field, starting off as the bucket guy on a five man crew all the way to a party chief. I've been an inspector on construction projects. I've been a survey technician (the only tech in a company with 7 RPLS on staff that worked my own projects, including boundary resolutions). I've been a designer. Now I'm mostly called a senior designer/cad manager. I've trained survey crews how to use F2F. I've trained surveyors, both RPLS and party chiefs, how to use CAD. I've trained engineers how to use CAD. I've trained draftsmen who knew how to use CAD but were getting left behind because of their fear of embracing new methods. I've mentored other senior designers and survey techs who are always looking for better ways to get jobs done.
Only you know what your career goals are. Whatever they are, I firmly believe you should strive to make yourself better. I am never satisfied with every aspect of how I do my job. I am constantly looking for ways to improve. If you want to be able to sell yourself, especially as someone who works in a volatile field, you have get better every day. Learn to become a leader. Take that RPLS by the hand and be a teacher. I remember my RPLS mentor, and how afraid he was of change. He taught me most all I know about surveying, even though I didn't take his advice and get my license before Texas changed their rules. In return, I taught him how to be better working within CAD. That is what I look for when my boss asks me about hiring CAD staff. I'm just a working guy. That's all I will ever be. Hopefully you can be something better!
Best regards,
Bob Garcia
Bob - no offense taken - sorry if something sounded that way. I'm just stating that I use model space exclusively and have never encountered a situation I couldn't handle with it. I have observed others here in both the surveying and engineering departments moving away from paper space because of techniques I have demonstrated. I would never claim that either is better than the other, just that I think I have mastered Model space for the survey and engineering drawings that I produce.
Squirltech, post: 399025, member: 11959 wrote: Use Layout/Paper space....it will save you time AND $$$.
My thought is to embrace it because it's not going away anytime soon. My $0.02.
Paperspace all the way. Not sure why this is even a question in today's day and age. Embrace it, or do things the old way (not that there is anyting wrong with that as long as your clients and other professionals you team with are satisfied) This is kind of like the surveyor that does not code linework in the field to be automated in the office. Sure, you can do it the old, slow way.....but why would you?
WA-ID Surveyor, post: 399031, member: 6294 wrote: Paperspace all the way. Not sure why this is even a question in today's day and age. Embrace it, or do things the old way (not that there is anyting wrong with that as long as your clients and other professionals you team with are satisfied) This is kind of like the surveyor that does not code linework in the field to be automated in the office. Sure, you can do it the old, slow way.....but why would you?
Our engineering dept. would blow a gasket if I produced engineering design topos using paper space!
If I was closer to you I'd challenge you to a draft-off! 😉 I guarantee you I'm not slow...
Jim in AZ, post: 399042, member: 249 wrote: Our engineering dept. would blow a gasket if I produced engineering design topos using paper space!
I'm curious why. If we're full scope on a project; ALTA/Design Survey & Entitlement/CD Civil I do the Survey using paperspace and viewports then the engineers XREF it, apply a layer state to make it look the way they want as an existing conditions base file and the world seems to keep spinning without a hitch. If I have to later add to the survey or revise something because of changed conditions then they automatically get the updates and are sure they have the most current information.
End of the day I guess it's the beautiful and frustrating thing about Autodesk, there are no fewer than 5 ways to do any one thing.
I use paper space when I have too, but prefer model space for the majority of my work. When working in paper space you have to keep going back and forth from model to paper space. On the other hand if you have a long parcel, you can show it in several pieces on the same sheet and still keep your model in tact. I do have an issue with using several scales in paper space. Still haven't mastered annotative scales. If you do multiple sheets for most projects, paper space is the way to go, but for single sheet plat maps, I think model space is much easier.
Cameron Watson PLS, post: 399064, member: 11407 wrote: I'm curious why. If we're full scope on a project; ALTA/Design Survey & Entitlement/CD Civil I do the Survey using paperspace and viewports then the engineers XREF it, apply a layer state to make it look the way they want as an existing conditions base file and the world seems to keep spinning without a hitch. If I have to later add to the survey or revise something because of changed conditions then they automatically get the updates and are sure they have the most current information.
End of the day I guess it's the beautiful and frustrating thing about Autodesk, there are no fewer than 5 ways to do any one thing.
"I'm curious why.:
Because my job is to give them a drawing depicting existing conditions that they can use as a base map for their design. They don't need a bunch of papespace viewports - just a basemap.
Jim in AZ, post: 399042, member: 249 wrote: Our engineering dept. would blow a gasket if I produced engineering design topos using paper space!
If I was closer to you I'd challenge you to a draft-off! 😉 I guarantee you I'm not slow...
I'm not trying to say you don't know what you're doing or anything like that. It sounds like you have plenty of experience and probably produce a fine CAD product, but it doesn't sound like you understand what paper-space is for.
Paper-space is for the stuff that is only on paper like the title block and notes. So in one of my drawings, all the dimensions, labels, symbols, line-work, and basically the entire 'map' are in model space. Then the viewport just takes a window view of the area within the model space that I want to show and places it inside the title block(paper-space). The general notes will be in paper-space as well. The north arrow and graphic scale and everything like that are still in model (possibly in different viewports so the scale isn't rotated). So a design topo done using paper-space would pretty much look exactly like yours except it wouldn't have the title block and notes in model space, which the subsequent users probably wouldn't need anyway because they'd be putting that model info on a different drawing.
Yes, a base topo drawing for design purposes is appropriate for model space - a snapshot.
ALTA maps, records of survey, subdivision maps - with notes, details, and the like are more efficiently drawn using viewports in paper space.
An analogy is the old method of pin drafting and stickybacks.
I use paper space in 100% of my drawings for title blocks, road labels, plan notes, north arrow, bar scale, or most everything that isn't "data" related. Points, boundaries, and features all go in model space.
Anybody for the Exportlayout command? Draw your model in model space, sheet up in paper space layouts, then when you've got everything just like you want it, visit each layout and execute the Exportlayout command and a new drawing is created that is entirely in model space and contains only what was in the layout including tblock and annotation that was in paper space in the new drawing. All of the geometry is in it's correct coordinate space and the plan view has been rotated to align with the former layout so that if you tile all of the drawings back into a master drawing they will fit together correctly. This is how I do record subdivision plats that are required to be submitted as separate drawings for each sheet with no Paper Space/Layout/viewports.