Time for a thinking cap on model space drafting for surveying

Use paper space. Particularly with the advent of annotative text/symbols, it is more powerful than ever.

I get wanting to use model space, but as you pointed out, maintaining the integrity of your base data is much more difficult when you need to copy it 5 or 6 times to make the sheets you want.

AMM_The_Drafter, post: 398900, member: 9770 wrote: Hello,

I just want to throw this out there to get more viewpoints than my own. Our RPLS is an older gentleman, and swears he hates viewports and cusses them up one side and down the other, daily. And he's asking if I can draft my oil & gas plats all in model space, with no viewports. (We use Carlson 2017 with AutoCAD 2017.) And as soon as I went to insert our normal border designed to be plotted at 8.5"x11" into the model space to start scaling it up to fit around our linework, I quickly remembered that we have a cover sheet, a legal description sheet, and possibly multiple sheets for plotting that just doesn't jive with our current format.

Q1: Have you been able to successfully use multiple sheets, with different things shown on each, with everything drawn in model space?

Q2: How do you preserve the integrity of the data with the need for multiple sheets?

I look forward to reading your ideas.

Early versions of AutoCAD did not have view ports. All elements of the drawing were in model space. Sheet borders were often inserted as blocks, scaled then moved to create the finished sheet(s) to be plotted. When cover sheets, text sheets and detail sheets were required they were simply inserted as blocks, scaled and moved to an area that did not conflict with the model. To visualize this think of laying the plotted 8.5" x 11" sheets on an office desk.

If elements of the various standard sheets require editing the inserted blocks need to be exploded. Also insure that the standard sheet borders do not contain any layers that duplicate the layers in the model drawing file. Many of us worked this way for years and going to paper space view ports was as difficult for us as going back to the old ways will be for you. It will require forethought and planning on your part.

Q1: YES

Q2: I create a Master drawing and XREF it into as many sheets as I need. I use Layers to control annotation on a sheet by sheet basis if required, which is rare, but very easy.

I am an older gentleman that has never used paper space in 31 years of CAD drafting (all AutoCAD). It is my opinion that paper space was invented and utilized by people who do not understand drawing scales the same way I do.

I don't like the idea. I have a lot more going on in model space than what is shown on the sheet. Usually there is line work that extends beyond the sheet as well. What do you do? Trim it? Seems silly and antiquated to me since the software has the capability to do it a better way. Also for proposed info like on a subdivision I will use the vport layer controls. I can have one drawing with multiple sheets. If you go in model space it looks pretty messy, but when you tab through the sheets there are different things on/off on each one.

Dan Patterson, post: 398916, member: 1179 wrote: I don't like the idea. I have a lot more going on in model space than what is shown on the sheet. Usually there is line work that extends beyond the sheet as well. What do you do? Trim it? Seems silly and antiquated to me since the software has the capability to do it a better way. Also for proposed info like on a subdivision I will use the vport layer controls. I can have one drawing with multiple sheets. If you go in model space it looks pretty messy, but when you tab through the sheets there are different things on/off on each one.

"Usually there is line work that extends beyond the sheet as well. What do you do?"

I use XCLIP - works perfectly...

We use to use paper space and it's really neat. But the employee that knew how to set it all up left and we went back to model space...:(

A1: Yes, twenty-five years ago, with no viable alternatives, I did it the way that Jim in Az describes.
A2: Again, the way that Jim in Az describes. Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe), or really any new commands from the last twenty-five years.

Here's my advice. Quit your job. If you're serious about your career, nothing good will come from you staying at a place that requires you to use outdated drafting methods. If you came in for an interview with me as a CAD manager and explained that was your SOP, that would kill your chances right then and there.

Do the field crews use a dip needle to locate pins? Do they still set up a baseline, lay down a cloth tape, and slap 90s to locate improvements?

I second everything Blitzkrieg Bob said.

Model space is the "heart" of your drawing. It will almost always have far more information than is showing on any one sheet, and is what the engineers/architects will use for their dewigns.

Paper pace is simply a tool that lets you create a "viewport" at a specific scale and even specific north orientation. It makes it easy to revise title blocks, print, (especially if you have several sheets), change the scale, north orientation, and control what is shown on a specific sheet, and how it is shown.

I could revise and print 20 papers pace layouts much faster than 5 model space borders and never have to worry about "missing a sheet".

Jim in AZ, post: 398915, member: 249 wrote: Q1: YES

Q2: I create a Master drawing and XREF it into as many sheets as I need. I use Layers to control annotation on a sheet by sheet basis if required, which is rare, but very easy.

I am an older gentleman that has never used paper space in 31 years of CAD drafting (all AutoCAD). It is my opinion that paper space was invented and utilized by people who do not understand drawing scales the same way I do.

I am so glad you said that because I'm an even older gentleman who always uses model space, and here all these years I thought I was the only outcast.

I cut my teeth in paper space using LDD and for some applications it's really the only way to go, but for 95% of what I do every day the pros of doing everything model space out weight the cons once I have the scale worked out. Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform. Working in model simplifies things, until it doesn't, and then I switch. Multiple sheets, index sheets, not problem in model space. Both ways work and I often use paper space to check things over before hitting 'plot'. But, whatever floats your boat.

And BlitzBob, it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough.

Williwaw, post: 398955, member: 7066 wrote: ..it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough.

Project document production varies a great deal in our industry. If I were still in with a civil interest where projects included 20, 30 or more drawing "sheets", paper space would definitely be the only way to keep things moving in a profitable manner. But the days of 10 mile long highway jobs are so far back in my rear view mirror I can't even see them anymore. The majority of my production is R/W exhibits required to fit letter size for recordation. I have several scale specific seed dgns I can choose and spit out a print in less than 20 minutes; then spend the majority of my time preparing the written descriptions and dedications.

It would be foolish to attempt to cut 300 acres of hay with a riding mower. But on the other hand it would be just as ludicrous to mow a city lot using a combine with a 20' header.

We all do what we feel is best. Let our profit and loss statement at the end of the year speak for itself.

Amen Se̱ior Paden.

The thought of doing everything in modelspace is too painful to even imagine.

I've been using paperspace ever since it came out sometime in the 1990s.

I can't even imagine going back to the mid-90's when we did our plans in modelspace.

Once I learned paperspace, with its ability to rotate (dview) the dwg without rotating the border, along with the freezing layers in the viewport without freezing them in modelspace, I realised how we'd been doing things the hard way for so long.

paden cash, post: 398956, member: 20 wrote: Project document production varies a great deal in our industry. If I were still in with a civil interest where projects included 20, 30 or more drawing "sheets", paper space would definitely be the only way to keep things moving in a profitable manner. But the days of 10 mile long highway jobs are so far back in my rear view mirror I can't even see them anymore. The majority of my production is R/W exhibits required to fit letter size for recordation. I have several scale specific seed dgns I can choose and spit out a print in less than 20 minutes; then spend the majority of my time preparing the written descriptions and dedications.

It would be foolish to attempt to cut 300 acres of hay with a riding mower. But on the other hand it would be just as ludicrous to mow a city lot using a combine with a 20' header.

We all do what we feel is best. Let our profit and loss statement at the end of the year speak for itself.

I get what you're saying here, but it's not as if paperspace takes extra effort. It's fairly simple, doesn't matter if it's for a one lot plan or a 100 lot subdivision.

Once you create your template for each size dwg, with borders and title block, you can just pick which one you need, create your viewport, twist, scale, and you're off and running.

It's actually easier and faster, since you're not scaling your borders to the dwg scale. The borders always stay the same size, 11x17, 18x24, 24x36, etc, no matter what scale you're final dwg is.

BlitzkriegBob, post: 398945, member: 9554 wrote: A1: Yes, twenty-five years ago, with no viable alternatives, I did it the way that Jim in Az describes.
A2: Again, the way that Jim in Az describes. Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe), or really any new commands from the last twenty-five years.

Here's my advice. Quit your job. If you're serious about your career, nothing good will come from you staying at a place that requires you to use outdated drafting methods. If you came in for an interview with me as a CAD manager and explained that was your SOP, that would kill your chances right then and there.

Do the field crews use a dip needle to locate pins? Do they still set up a baseline, lay down a cloth tape, and slap 90s to locate improvements?

" Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe)"

I am the surveyor - and my CAD operations dealing with the manner in which I display my data on a drawing have almost nothing to do with surveying. My master drawing contains everything I have in an unaltered fashion and can be transmitted to others without any work whatsoever. I can produce a drawing in about 65% of the time of anyone else I have ever seen - and I never have incorrect dimensions in paper space because I never allow myself the opportunity. My profitability is testimony to the viability of my methodology.

Just because new methods come along doesn't automatically mean they are better.

Jim in AZ, post: 398976, member: 249 wrote: and I never have incorrect dimensions in paper space because I never allow myself the opportunity

This one mystifies me. Only the border, blocks of notes, legends, etc. should be in paper space. I've gotten drawings from a couple of architects that appeared to have all of the dimensions and text in paper space.....That's not how it is supposed to work. All elements of the drawing go in model space. In particular with the advent of annotative labels and dimensions, it is very easy to draw and label something once and show it at any scale you want or need in paper space through a viewport.

Williwaw, post: 398955, member: 7066 wrote: Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform.

I do my annotations and symbols in model space but you can see them in the viewport. I keep the general survey notes in paper space. FYI ~ if you want to switch something from paper-space to model-space or vice versa try the CHSPACE command. It's a huge time saver!

Dan Patterson, post: 398980, member: 1179 wrote: I do my annotations and symbols in model space but you can see them in the viewport. I keep the general survey notes in paper space. FYI ~ if you want to switch something from paper-space to model-space or vice versa try the CHSPACE command. It's a huge time saver!

I agree. As a general rule, I put everything that's part of the body of the plan in modelspace, and everything that's apart from the actually dwg, like notes, title, legend, etc, in paperspace.

I put the north arrow in model space too, as it's far less likely to screw that up there. I've seen some bad norths where people have stuck them in papespace.