C3D labels

JPH, post: 436522, member: 6636 wrote: I understand working with different sofwares, and especially people. That said, why does it have to be changeable? You're saying that C3D can't make B-D so they don't change?

Talked to the CAD manager, and at this point I sometimes can't tell if I actually spoke to someone or just head-butted the conc wall a few times.

Sure its changeable - explode the dynamic label once and you have a static block. Explode it again and you have Mtext. Explode it again and you have single line text.

I agree that there is value in having dynamic labels. I like Jamesƒ?? Zen description. Dynamic is great when you are laying out the interior or a subdivision.

Butƒ?? you invest a lot of time and energy figuring out what the bearing and distance of the line is (and curve data) and then you go through the process of checking all of those dimensions and your area calcs are based on those dimensions. Then you have dimensions that YOU are willing to certify with your stamp. You can only ensure the integrity of your labels when others working in the drawing if:

[INDENT]1. Other ALL users are uber competent and value your work and comps as much as you do (that would be unusual but possible);

2. You protect the content of the label that you develop.[/INDENT]

To protect the labels that you are responsible for you can:

[INDENT]A. Lock the layer that the labels are on, (this is kind of weak) or;

B. Explode all of your C3D labels (this makes them individual blocks), (this is a little stronger) or;

C. Wblock all of your labels out to a backup drawing on your local drive (select convert to block when you do this to make them a single block in the original drawing) (this is fairly strong and you have a set of the defensible labels safely stored on your local drive ƒ?? if something in the master drawing gets hosed you can delete the messed up label set and insert your backup copy quickly, easily, and reliably.)[/INDENT]

And yes others will probably be unhappy with all of the labels as one block ƒ?? theyƒ??ll probably explode them to move them around. When they do that you can simply reinsert your labels block to see what has changed ƒ?? if the label text doesnƒ??t all line up on top of whatƒ??s in the drawing then the change will show up like a sore thumb. If it has changed you can verify that 1) only the position has changed; 2) the changed position doesnƒ??t alter the communication of which element the dimension applies too; 3) that the content hasnƒ??t changed.

Dynamic is better for some things and worse for others.

After all the checks are complete and you are satisfied with the results then:
Dynamic = Dangerous

Good luck

JPH, post: 436540, member: 6636 wrote: It's just aggravating. Sure, it's a training thing, but I still don't like that it can happen. Maybe for you who have total control because you're doing your own drafting, or have developed total trust in a draftsman, but we have a varied crew here, who almost none have boundary drafting experience. Some think they do, but not really.

Do it yourself if that is the case! I do my own "bdry" drawing and no one but the Surveyors touch it unless we ask them too. Engineers XREF it into their drawings. If a change needs to be made they talk to me about it, and I will do it, or under my direction they will do it.

JKinAK, post: 436553, member: 7219 wrote: Dynamic is better for some things and worse for others.

After all the checks are complete and you are satisfied with the results then:
Dynamic = Dangerous

Dynamic is the best thing about C3D and any cad software
add a few shots to a surface and the profiles x-section volumes etc etc .........all update.

The problem i have with C3D are things that don,t update (what has not i guess i could check 5 - 15 pages) yikes update this is in a plan set that may run 10-20 pages
I have better things to Do.

As far as labels walk to the C3D operators Desk and ask them to make a survey label style you like and call it JoeSurv My BD Ver1 and save it to a SurvLabels.dwg style used by survey types and import it as a DWG block and relabel line two survey type stuff.

Get the C3D types to make a label style you like

Pete

Again don't work across two softs

Peter Kozub, post: 436566, member: 375 wrote: Dynamic is the best thing about C3D and any cad software
add a few shots to a surface and the profiles x-section volumes etc etc .........all update.

Dynamic updates are definitely a major improvement in cad software most/much of the time.
Updating surfaces dynamically for design is awesome (until the design is final).
Updating existing ground surfaces dynamically is awesome before the field check.
Updating existing ground surfaces dynamically after the surface is checked and final - well that dynamic update becomes a liability.

If you are in an office of reckless or ignorant/less skilled users then dynamic is VERY dangerous.

I'm a surveyor only, I've been using cad since 1990 and c3d since 2008

some survey tips for c3d

Lines with multiple segments draw the long line and label it, draw the intermediate lines on a non plot layer, label them and send them to the back

for crows feet I use a block created and rotated out of a ( symbol . This can't be snapped to

instead of trimming lines for clarity at the property corners, use a block with masking

its very rare that I explode any c3d labels

use the GROUP command to make others think twice about editing your work

TickMagnet, post: 436569, member: 4378 wrote:
Lines with multiple segments draw the long line and label it, draw the intermediate lines on a non plot layer, label them and send them to the back

for crows feet I use a block created and rotated out of a ( symbol . This can't be snapped to

That's how I do it too. I'll have to steal your parenthese idea...

JPH, post: 436522, member: 6636 wrote: why does it have to be changeable? You're saying that C3D can't make B-D so they don't change?

Mark Mayer, post: 436472, member: 424 wrote: you can simply label between 2 points - ie/ not associate the label with a line - by clicking on any 2 points in space.

I appreciate all the replies and input.

The bottom line is, all those tips about how to do something, make it static, add multiple labels, or change positioning, etc, don't really apply, since I'm not the one doing the drafting. What I'm looking for is for the drafters to produce something that does NOT have the ability to change between reviews/revisions.

I'm thinking that Jesusfreak might have the answer, to start doing the drafting, or at least the final drafting myself. Not what I really want, but it seems that it's the only way.

Just looked at another draft, and one segment distance is missing that I'd already said was good. So, basically, if I don't randomly notice that something I've already checked is changed or missing, I'm screwed.

By the way, I used to have my own small company, and did all my own drafting there and at other companies, in Softdesk, LDD, and then Carlson. I never once had a situation where I said to myself, "I wish there was a way that these damn bearings and distances would change when I change a line". It's so easy to label in CAD now, I can't really see much benefit, as opposed to the problems I'm having. Yes, I do get that there are other types of jobs than boundaries where it might be useful, but I'm not responsible for those.

Mark Mayer, post: 436460, member: 424 wrote: Why are lines being changed so late in the game?

One of the main reasons I didn't go with Autodesk. While testing the software out, I labeled a spot elevation and didn't like where the label was...gripped it and moved it to a new location and all the contours moved with it. Scary stuff! No thanks.

Mark Mayer, post: 436460, member: 424 wrote: Why are lines being changed so late in the game?

That is the issue

It appears to a disinterested observer that the CAD departments "Oh you don't get C3D, you silly surveyor" is a cover for "we are moving sh!t around in a drawing that we shouldn't ever be touching." If the survey base drawings are moving forward to other designers in a CAD environment, they will inevitably be designing off the lines in the drawing rather than the bearings and distances and the CAD monkeys trimming or moving boundary lines could come back to cost the firm a boatload of money down the road. In this case the dynamic nature of the labels may be a blessing in disguise.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be putting my boundary information in a separate drawing that is referenced into any drawing that is being worked on by the CAD department and that they aren't not allowed work live in.

Mark Mayer, post: 436472, member: 424 wrote: Yes, it has, in a manner of speaking. But you can simply label between 2 points - ie/ not associate the label with a line - by clicking on any 2 points in space. But then if you change the line the label doesn't change, and that associativity is where the power of C3d is supposed to be.

Using C3d well requires a change in thinking and processes, without that change C3d is just a crappy update to LDD.

I was looking for a way to label between two points without a line just today and couldn't find it. Can you give me a clue? My frustrated solution was to draw a line on the defpoints layer.

vern, post: 436778, member: 3436 wrote: Can you give me a clue?

Under the ANNOTATE tab - Add labels - Line and curve. Which I presume you already know. Under label type select "Line between 2 points".

imaudigger, post: 436685, member: 7286 wrote: One of the main reasons I didn't go with Autodesk. While testing the software out, I labeled a spot elevation and didn't like where the label was...gripped it and moved it to a new location and all the contours moved with it. Scary stuff! No thanks.

That's not how labels work. If it's a surface elevation label that gets moved, it inherits the surface elevation of its new location. Perhaps it wasn't a surface elevation label, but a point label. When you select a point, you get multiple grips. One of the grips would move the label, which wouldn't revise the surface. Another of the grips would move the point, which obviously would revise the surface. That's a good thing that the surface would automatically update if you move a point. Nothing scary about it.

I really don't understand the excuse you get from the drafters. This is not a problem with the way C3D works, but a problem with what sounds like careless and sloppy drafting.

For me, the only time C3D's reactive labels become a problem is when making deed sketches. You'll want the label to reflect the record exactly, be it in Varas, or obviously incorrect (call is in the wrong quadrant maybe), or you'll want to rotate to fit a basis of bearing. Even then, the solution is just to explode your labels (twice) and manually change them like text.

There are a lot of good posts on this thread. We don't really know the workflow of the OP so it's hard to make suggestions. Are the drafters doing all the cad work that is then checked by the OP, or is the OP starting the drawing then passing it off to get finished, or is the OP doing all the work on the survey then passing it off to the design department?

Regardless, the problem, IMHO, is not the software but rather the drafters. Operator error is going to happen if you have C3D or Carlson or Microstation or whatever else you may use. If you change your rod height in the field but forget to update the data collector (man I'd do that every job practically), is it the fault of the software or the data collector? I could share horror stories of subdivision plats that were done in Carlson that I'd be asked to check and half the labels would be wrong because the labels were not dynamic.

Here's my $0.02. Maybe you've already done this, but if not, I'd try to go visual with the CAD manager. When I check a job, everything on the page gets highlighted in one color or another. Do you have hard copies (or even better, for a tree hugger like me, PDF files) that show the labels as being checked and populated? Perhaps showing the manager examples of disappearing labels will catch his attention. If not, then the next step would be to move up the chain. Eventually you might talk to somebody that will understand that the bottom line is at stake if you have to do repeated checks of the same information.

I remember many years ago when I was writing a lot of lisp routines, and I would spend a lot of time trying to dummy proof them. Eventually I figured out that no matter how hard I tried, there were always bigger dummies. That's why we have labels warning us that our coffee is hot and not to grab the wrong end of a chainsaw.

TickMagnet, post: 436569, member: 4378 wrote: I'm a surveyor only, I've been using cad since 1990 and c3d since 2008

some survey tips for c3d

Lines with multiple segments draw the long line and label it, draw the intermediate lines on a non plot layer, label them and send them to the back

for crows feet I use a block created and rotated out of a ( symbol . This can't be snapped to

instead of trimming lines for clarity at the property corners, use a block with masking

its very rare that I explode any c3d labels

use the GROUP command to make others think twice about editing your work

This may be what you're talking about, but you can add crows feet to be a part of your label. There's even a couple of blocks in one of Autocad's out of the box template that are the original crows feet that were in DCA 27 years ago (maybe longer). Add one at the start, one at the end, and your style is good to go.

BlitzkriegBob, post: 436811, member: 9554 wrote: There are a lot of good posts on this thread. We don't really know the workflow of the OP so it's hard to make suggestions. Are the drafters doing all the cad work that is then checked by the OP, or is the OP starting the drawing then passing it off to get finished, or is the OP doing all the work on the survey then passing it off to the design department?

Regardless, the problem, IMHO, is not the software but rather the drafters. Operator error is going to happen if you have C3D or Carlson or Microstation or whatever else you may use. If you change your rod height in the field but forget to update the data collector (man I'd do that every job practically), is it the fault of the software or the data collector? I could share horror stories of subdivision plats that were done in Carlson that I'd be asked to check and half the labels would be wrong because the labels were not dynamic.

Here's my $0.02. Maybe you've already done this, but if not, I'd try to go visual with the CAD manager. When I check a job, everything on the page gets highlighted in one color or another. Do you have hard copies (or even better, for a tree hugger like me, PDF files) that show the labels as being checked and populated? Perhaps showing the manager examples of disappearing labels will catch his attention. If not, then the next step would be to move up the chain. Eventually you might talk to somebody that will understand that the bottom line is at stake if you have to do repeated checks of the same information.

I remember many years ago when I was writing a lot of lisp routines, and I would spend a lot of time trying to dummy proof them. Eventually I figured out that no matter how hard I tried, there were always bigger dummies. That's why we have labels warning us that our coffee is hot and not to grab the wrong end of a chainsaw.

I totally understand that it's operator error, and not the software at fault here. That said, though, I don't want it to be even possible for a change after I review. Also, I'm failing to understand that when you get to the point that the format, plan view, scale, etc, have been decided and accepted, and it's not going to change, what the benefit there is to having "dynamic" labels. Why even have something that could change on it's own at that point?

The drafters are drafting the plan. I do the survey and calcs in Carlson, and send them a dwg and points file. They produce the plan from that. I'm at the point where I'm going to have them "dumb" things down in their dwg, send it to me, and I'll finish the plan. That'll solve a few things, I'd think.

The CAD manager cannot be reasoned with, I'll leave it at that.

JPH, post: 436815, member: 6636 wrote: Also, I'm failing to understand that when you get to the point that the format, plan view, scale, etc, have been decided and accepted, and it's not going to change, what the benefit there is to having "dynamic" labels. Why even have something that could change on it's own at that point?

Do you get to a point where things on a project aren't going to change? Man, one of the things I hate about working in Indy instead of Houston is that we never seem to get to that point! Kidding aside, and I know you know this, the labels aren't changing on their own. They're changing because somebody did something to the linework. There's no excuse for that of course. I don't even know what would happen if you lock a layer that has dynamic labels. If the linework changes, would the label change also, even if the layer was locked? Anybody?

JPH, post: 436815, member: 6636 wrote: The CAD manager cannot be reasoned with, I'll leave it at that.

That's what I figured. I'm retired from my second vocation, which was sports officiating. We had a saying that fits the situation of having things go wrong that are out of our control. Get In, Get Done, Get Out.