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Best practice for creating survey drawings?

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(@timd1971)
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As an example, using total station to collect point data and CAD software such as MicroSurvey FieldGenius, AutoCAD, SketchUp or the like to process the data to create deliverables.

Using UTM zones, NAD83 or state planes.

To keep it simple, say I collect 4 corners of a lot.?ÿ If "perfectly" flat, then after dimensioning the 4 boundary lines, the distances would be correct in plan view.

But what if the 4 property corners (points) are different elevations.?ÿ Especially if drastic changes in elevations.

Dimensioning between the points and other elements on the property would be incorrect in top down plan view, and not the correct actual real world slope distances using coordinate system.

How do you dimension these actual slope distances in plan view if working in 2D correctly?

I guess it seems these are basic boundary surveys (not topos)...?ÿ but how do you take into account the elevation differences for correct dimensions in plan view?

Thank you.

?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : May 11, 2023 7:17 pm
rover83
(@rover83)
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Short answer? The linework is almost always drawn using 2D figures rather than drawing 3D lines between the elevated points. (Or we use the FLATTEN command if we forget and draw the lines in 3D.)

Most drafting programs will dimension 3D linework correctly; I don't do it that often, but it is necessary from time to time, usually for some construction application, or sometimes if we do as-builts of pipes and need to show slope distance and grade.

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 5:58 am
Norman_Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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But what if the 4 property corners (points) are different elevations.  Especially if drastic changes in elevations.

Boundary dimensions are expressed in the horizontal dimension only. Any inversing routine in your software will handle that. 

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 8:37 am
bill93
(@bill93)
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Using UTM zones, NAD83 or state planes

You are mixing apples and rutabagas thete.

UTM, state plane, and custom Low Distortion Projections are examples of projecting the ellipsoidal earth onto flat planes.

NAD83(with realization date) is a datum that locates points relative to a larger framework. 

A datum AND a projection are needed to locate points on a flat map.

 

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 10:36 am
(@timd1971)
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Topic starter
 

But what if the 4 property corners (points) are different elevations.  Especially if drastic changes in elevations.

Boundary dimensions are expressed in the horizontal dimension only. Any inversing routine in your software will handle that. 

 

Understood.  Horizontal only.

So if for example the HORIZONTAL distance (dimension) states 100' between 2 property corners (points), but the ACTUAL "slope" distance is actually say 110', how is that typically shown to account for the actual slope distance?

Does a topo show this also in addition for the boundary lines?

I guess my point is when elevations and slopes need to be accounted for proper design when elements run along or follow the slope of the terrain?  May fall short when just relying on horizontal distances?

But, yes, I do follow you, plan drawings are shown as horizontal distances only using a standard projection and coordinate system such as UTM zone, NAD83 or state plane.

 

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 11:15 am

RADAR
(@dougie)
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Does a topo show this also in addition for the boundary lines?

No, I've never seen a survey express boundary dimensions as slope distance.

 

Your mileage may vary...

 

 

 

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 11:52 am
rover83
(@rover83)
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So if for example the HORIZONTAL distance (dimension) states 100' between 2 property corners (points), but the ACTUAL "slope" distance is actually say 110', how is that typically shown to account for the actual slope distance?

Engineers aren't looking at the boundary in 3D. They (should) treat it as a "wall" polygon that occupies all elevations.

They're going to be looking at the TIN surface and improvement elevations to do their design, and because they are designing in a plane coordinate system (projection) they just need to make sure their design elements remain inside that "boundary wall".

It's also important to remember that this is possible because the projections we employ are conformal, meaning that shapes are preserved, and they are carefully chosen so that the element that is distorted by conformal projections - size - is affected as little as possible.

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 11:54 am
(@timd1971)
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Topic starter
 

So what is typically provided and used when elevation data is needed for design work?  Topo 2D flat projection drawings with spot elevations? TIN files etc?

Thank you.

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 1:42 pm
Norman_Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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So what is typically provided and used when elevation data is needed for design work? 

Contours, generated by a surface model. Sometimes augmented with spot elevations at high points and depressions. 

image

In C3d the surface model is contained within the drawing file. With other software packages the surface model is a separate file. Frequently the surface model is delivered in the form of a LandXML file.     

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 1:46 pm
MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
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Our surveys are always done on a plane surface, back in the day it was multiple planes created by each instrument set up. Every time the instrument was moved a new plane was surveyed on. 

These were such small discrepancies that they were ignored. Today we pick the plane we survey on and we project everything to it using GPS. We disregard the slope vs horizontal issue and do everything horizontally. Until we don't, but those are special cases. 

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 1:54 pm

OleManRiver
(@olemanriver)
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@dougie I agree that most distances for boundaries are reduced to A horizontal plane. State plane or ground etc.  However just in the last couple months I pulled a deed that was pre 1930’s. Done in poles.  It was slope distance or point to point along the surface. After doing a bit of research I found here the requirements to reduce distance to a hz plane was not adopted until later 1930’s. If I remember correctly many years ago doing some retracements of mine and mine shafts in Colorado some of that was slope especially the acreage. So never say never lol . But most states today usually require hz distance I assume.

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 2:02 pm
Norman_Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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plan drawings are shown as horizontal distances only using a standard projection and coordinate system such as UTM zone, NAD83 or state plane.

Frequently a local coordinate system is created with an arbitrary local origin and basis of bearings. Commonly such a system employs 5000,5000 (or similar) as the beginning coordinate and designates some tied boundary line as having a particular bearing, per some survey of record. Things are not always done on an agency datum.   

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 2:09 pm
Norman_Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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Using UTM zones, NAD83 or state planes.

NAD83 is a datum. UTM and State Plane are projections of that datum. A projection is a manner of expressing positions of the datum in cartesian coordinates rather than latitude and longitude.   

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 3:57 pm
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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I will long remember the problems I had switching from strictly 2-D data to 3-D data.  A certain line needed to be extended until it was of a certain length.  Drew a circle of the desired radius and then attempted to extend the line to the circle.  It couldn't be done.  After too much frustration, I realized why it couldn't be done.  (Slap to forehead)

 
Posted : May 12, 2023 4:32 pm
 jph
(@jph)
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I'm trying to remember from the pipeline work I'd done years ago.  I know the pipe lengths are recorded, and the pig is run through the pipe and is recording its distance traveled.  So, I'm thinking that might be something that's based on actual length run (slope) vs horz distance

 
Posted : May 19, 2023 6:51 am