Javad LS vs. Leica GS16

I've never been around or have I seen Leica GS16. I can answer any other questions on Javad though.

The Leica GS 16 has 555 channels, according to their brochure.

The Javad LS has 864.
This is not going to make a significant difference, in light canopy.
But, in heavy canopy, having a D8 Dozer, will overpower a D5 Dozer.

There is more to it than that, but, in the really tough stuff, the sheer muscle of the Javad is going to be hard to beat.
Having run one for around 1-1/2 yrs, and watching it, i cannot imagine anything with less horspower.
This is just by comparing brochures.

Nate

amdomag, post: 445346, member: 1683 wrote: I am looking for a comprehensive comparison between the Javad LS and Leica GS16. Any link?

Thank you.

If the R10 cannot hang I would bet the ranch that the GS16 would be left in the dust.

Nate The Surveyor, post: 445455, member: 291 wrote: The Leica GS 16 has 555 channels, according to their brochure.

The Javad LS has 864.
This is not going to make a significant difference, in light canopy.
But, in heavy canopy, having a D8 Dozer, will overpower a D5 Dozer.

There is more to it than that, but, in the really tough stuff, the sheer muscle of the Javad is going to be hard to beat.
Having run one for around 1-1/2 yrs, and watching it, i cannot imagine anything with less horspower.
This is just by comparing brochures.

Nate

Number of channels is more marketing than a noticeable benefit these days unless the manufacturer tells you exactly how they utilize each channel. I have been told that some manufacturers may dedicate multiple channels to a single satellite. So if Javad were to do something of this nature that 864 channel board doesn't sound nearly as good when it may dedicate 4 channels to a single satellite. Just because a board has 864 channels doesn't mean the firmware will allow it to utilize 864 satellites either.

What I evaluate is the signals and constellations utilized by the measurement engine, performance in the environments I typically work, form factor/weight, ruggedness, collector offerings, software and the value of the package compared to the overall price as well as the dealer.

To me, having a GNSS, TS and collector/software from the same manufacturer, their performance and a dealer nearby to support me when needed is much more important than the number of channels my receiver has.

Is the Javad supporting dynDNS internet service?

Johnson5144, post: 445564, member: 7149 wrote: Number of channels is more marketing than a noticeable benefit these days unless the manufacturer tells you exactly how they utilize each channel. I have been told that some manufacturers may dedicate multiple channels to a single satellite. So if Javad were to do something of this nature that 864 channel board doesn't sound nearly as good when it may dedicate 4 channels to a single satellite. Just because a board has 864 channels doesn't mean the firmware will allow it to utilize 864 satellites either.

What I evaluate is the signals and constellations utilized by the measurement engine, performance in the environments I typically work, form factor/weight, ruggedness, collector offerings, software and the value of the package compared to the overall price as well as the dealer.

To me, having a GNSS, TS and collector/software from the same manufacturer, their performance and a dealer nearby to support me when needed is much more important than the number of channels my receiver has.

In my opinion, yes it is extremely important to achieve a complete GPS+TPS workflow solution. Having said that, it is also an absolute consideration on how deep in the forest you can bring in your control points if the situation requires total station to finish the job. How to balance things here is quite tricky.

Johnson is sort of right... however the Javad has 6 engines, and one more, watching things. With all that's going on, and seeing it happen, just as other users have, said.... then maybe it's not hype in that case.

As far as support goes, The support from Javad has been very good.

A phone call, from your cell phone, while working, and getting you working again, is worth more than a trip to a local dealer.

IMHO

N

amdomag, post: 445577, member: 1683 wrote: Is the Javad supporting dynDNS internet service?

Hello amdomag,

Yes, our portable RTK base stations (which are typically used with the TRIUMPH-LS RTK Rover), the TRIUMPH-2 and TRIUMPH-1M, support dnyDNS. Also, our full range of TCP enabled reference station solutions support dynDNS as well.

Regards,
Michael Glutting
JAVAD GNSS, Inc. | Sales
M 408.375.9135 | E [email protected]

Michael Glutting, post: 445606, member: 10007 wrote: Hello amdomag,

Yes, our portable RTK base stations (which are typically used with the TRIUMPH-LS RTK Rover), the TRIUMPH-2 and TRIUMPH-1M, support dnyDNS. Also, our full range of TCP enabled reference station solutions support dynDNS as well.

Regards,
Michael Glutting
JAVAD GNSS, Inc. | Sales
M 408.375.9135 | E [email protected]

Very interesting. I can see my Leica working with Javad here.:smarty:

Thank you, Michael.

Johnson5144, post: 445564, member: 7149 wrote: Number of channels is more marketing than a noticeable benefit these days unless the manufacturer tells you exactly how they utilize each channel. I have been told that some manufacturers may dedicate multiple channels to a single satellite. So if Javad were to do something of this nature that 864 channel board doesn't sound nearly as good when it may dedicate 4 channels to a single satellite. Just because a board has 864 channels doesn't mean the firmware will allow it to utilize 864 satellites either.

Some details of the channel usage is explained on https://www.javad.com/jgnss/products/receivers/triumph-ls.html&apos ;">TRIUMPH-LS product page:

[INDENT]Some questioned the need for the 216 channels. They now realize the need for 440 channels. We assign multiple channels to each satellite for redundancy and reliability. We use over 100 channels to scan GNSS bands for interference (patent pending). 864 channels is the KEY to reliable performance.
[/INDENT]

Here are the features of the TRIUMPH-LS and its field software, J-Field, that I find to be most revolutionary and innovative as compared to current GNSS systems:

• The TRIUMPH-LS contains everything needed to function as a complete RTK rover in one small, compact, ergonomic and very portable unit: an 864 channel GNSS receiver, a UHF or spread spectrum radio, a GSM modem, a Wi-Fi adapter, two internal cameras, a flashlight, and a bright 800x480 pixel display. Included with the system is a collapsible monopod rover pole which allows the unit to be quickly folded up to fit in a very small space, perfect for carrying the system through the woods or quickly stowing inside a vehicle. The lack of a data collected bracketed to the rover pole increases further increases its portability and the user can carry the system through the woods without having to worry about a data collector bracketed to the rover pole getting caught in brush.

• This system was ergonomically engineered; the head height vertical display allows the user to operate the TRIUMPH-LS while standing in an upright position and looking forward. The user does not need to bend their neck to look down to view the display as is traditionally done with a system having a data collector attached to a rover pole. This feature allows the system to be used without the neck soreness that can plague a user bending their head downward to view a data collector for extended periods of time.

• The field software, J-Field, is included at no extra charge with the system. There is no need for an external data collector or software. J-Field is constantly being improved and updates will always be available free of charge with the system. The updates can be downloaded through Wi-Fi and are very simple to install, requiring only a couple button presses to update the system.

• J-Field, features 6 separate parallel RTK engines that all run simultaneously with separate assumptions. This allows for fixes to be obtained quicker than if only a single RTK engine was used. It has an advanced RTK verification system that can be used in difficult RTK environments where there is high multipath and/or tree canopy cover. This process will automatically reset the RTK engines and eliminate points from being collected with bad RTK fixes that often plague other systems in difficult locations.

• With the built in GSM modem, it is very easy to connect to RTN networks. Alternatively, it can also be connected through Wi-Fi using a mobile hotspot.

• J-Field has many customization features that can be used to increase productivity as your knowledge of the system grows. The stake and collect screens have 10 white boxes that are easily customized to display a number of fields which the user may desire.

• Post processing raw data is very simple in J-Field. GNSS raw data files can be configured to be stored for each RTK point automatically. After stopping your local Javad base station, the raw base station data is downloaded into J-Field where it can then easily be uploaded to Javad's post-processing server, DPOS (Data Processing Online Service). Autonomous base station coordinates and all the RTK points collected from the base station session can then be adjusted to a solution obtained from processing the base station data with NGS CORS data.

  Base to rover vectors can also be processed with DPOS. This allows the user to compare the RTK coordinates with the post-processed coordinates and then choose the desired coordinate for that point. This feature is very useful when surveying in areas outside of the base station's radio range as points can still be collected and post-processed in these areas.

• It contains a built-in compass and tilt sensors. The built in compass allows for the quick and efficient stake out of points. Forward/back and left/right offset readings relative to the face of the display show precisely where the stake out point is located. This stakeout method allows reduces the time required to stake out a point as compared to using traditional north/south and east/west offsets. The built-in tilt sensors can be used in lieu of having to plumb the rover pole. Taking advantage of the tilt sensors is also a "Lift & Tilt" mode that allows for collection of topo points without having to press any buttons. In this mode, when the TRIUMPH-LS is plumbed a point will automatically start collecting and can be programmed to collect a set number of epochs or to stop collection when the unit is tilted. After the point is collected the user tilts the TRIUMPH-LS and walks to the next point which will be collected when the unit is plumbed again.

• Support is provided free of charge by a PLS team that are only a telephone call away. J-Field allows the display of the TRIUMPH-LS to be mirrored to server through Javadƒ??s https://www.javad.com/jgnss/javad/news/pr20150521.html&apos ;">Remote Assistance & Monitoring Services (RAMS) where support team members can directly connect to the receiver and take control of it to troubleshot problems and provide support.

Nate The Surveyor, post: 445588, member: 291 wrote: Johnson is sort of right... however the Javad has 6 engines, and one more, watching things. With all that's going on, and seeing it happen, just as other users have, said.... then maybe it's not hype in that case.

As far as support goes, The support from Javad has been very good.

A phone call, from your cell phone, while working, and getting you working again, is worth more than a trip to a local dealer.

IMHO

N

I get what you are saying, but simply stating 555 vs 864 channels should be important isn't the case, as it could be that one manufacturer utilizes channels differently. The important part of your statement is the 6 measurement engines and checking the integrity of the positioning, not how many channels the board has available.

Mr Johnson, thank you for your input. You are quite right... the sheer numbers are not as significant, as HOW the numbers are working. Combined with the 6 engines, it is simply ridiculous what I'm doing with the LS. Shot where shots cannot happen.... It will really spoil you. It gets a shot, that is impossible, then another, then it's in what looks like an easy place, and it takes 4 minutes. (It's still GPS, and dependent on good geometry).
Hey, get as modern of a GPS as you can. No need getting less than you can.

Nate

Has this site become dedicated to JAVAD sales?

Amdomag,

My take on the number of channels.

Yes we devote more than one channel to each signal. This is a great strategy for multipath detection. When you have more "ears" listening to everything, you can determine which is a direct signal, and which signals are reflections. The strongest signal to the receiver may be the reflection off of a tree trunk. I am glad my receiver can isolate the weaker signal that came directly through the tree canopy. This is one of the main benefits of more channels.

Johnson5144, post: 445564, member: 7149 wrote: Number of channels is more marketing than a noticeable benefit these days unless the manufacturer tells you exactly how they utilize each channel. I have been told that some manufacturers may dedicate multiple channels to a single satellite. So if Javad were to do something of this nature that 864 channel board doesn't sound nearly as good when it may dedicate 4 channels to a single satellite. Just because a board has 864 channels doesn't mean the firmware will allow it to utilize 864 satellites either.

What I evaluate is the signals and constellations utilized by the measurement engine, performance in the environments I typically work, form factor/weight, ruggedness, collector offerings, software and the value of the package compared to the overall price as well as the dealer.

To me, having a GNSS, TS and collector/software from the same manufacturer, their performance and a dealer nearby to support me when needed is much more important than the number of channels my receiver has.

Javad has great service, you are only a phone call away from a expert user that can answer most any question and fix most any problem remotely. When I'm asked about javad their service is the first thing I brag on.

Another component of the Javad software is:
It's core coords are lat/lon. To load a local (5000-5000) file, you HAVE to give it some sort of parameters, to place this file correctly, on the earth. Or, you cannot work with a local file.
Whats great about the LS, is you can look at it like a flow chart.
1st. Is lat/lon
Then, spc, your zone.
Then, it allows MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS LOCALIZATIONS. All, without messing up your 1st spc.
The LS has 10 of these, labled 0, through 9.
So, you can set page 0 to be spc. Then have 9 localizations, off of that, all with their own separate coord systems, rotations, and scale factors.
Or, you can use page 0 as spc0, page 1 as spc1, page 3 as another spc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. So, I can have AR south, AR North, Texas, and Oklahoma, simply set as SEPARATE PAGES.
Since the CORE is lat/long, I can express, review, perform cogo, on any system I set as active, in that job. If I inverse from a coord in AR South, to a coord in TEXAS N, it expresses the answer, in whatever PAGE is active, or current, at that moment.
It's truly a geodetic Survey Machine.
That last paragraph says alot. PLUS, I can have a couple of localizations, or LDP'S active.
I think its great!
N

Nate,
I have never seen a GNSS unit that does not use geodetic coordinates or ECEF Cartesian coordinates. That's just the way they work. With our GS16 (and our old ATX1230s and GX1230 as well) you must either choose a defined projection or perform a localization if you wish to view grid coordinate values. And while I cannot see my coordinates in multiple grid systems at once, all I have to do is change the coordinate system. This does not change the underlying geodetic coordinate. I assume that this is also true for the current Trimble gear. I'm not sure why I would ever want to see the values in different systems other that to choose the best LDP for a site which I usually do in the office.

Well, John, It's difficult to explain what I am trying to explain, because what the Javad does, is not like any thing I know about.

ALL internal coords, are Lat Lon. Lat Lon is the MOST accurate, and specific mechanism to contain data, on a round earth. (oblate Spheroid).
So, all further expressions of coords, are projections. (flat earthers can go jump off the edge here!)

A typical Job flow is to: SET up a projection, such as SPC. This is ONE step away from Lat Lon.

Then, it allows up to 10 simultaneous projections. WITHOUT changing the internal Lat Lons. These projections are just EXPRESSIONS of the internal, non changing Lat longs. (There is ONE part of the software that will change the Lat Lon's. That's DPOS. So, you can move about a base, and all it's sideshots, to put the days work on real SPC, or cors based Lat Longs)

So, Page 0 is set to SPC.
Page 1 is set to a local coord system, or a Low Distortion Projection. It has meta data, that has up to all 7 parameters, of a Helmert transformation.
Translate, Rotate, Scale, pivot EW Pivot NS.
I usually just use Translate, Scale, and leave the rest alone. Sometimes I do Rotate.
And, I can do this on one page.
then, I can make Page 2 into another SPC, like Arkansas North.
And Page 3 into another kind of localization.
When I set page 0 current, I see my inverses with GRID bearings, and BOTH grid and ground distances.
When I set page 1 current, I see my inverses with GRID bearings, and BOTH the LDP grid, and actual ground distances. (LDP is low distortion Projection)
When I set page 3 current, I see my inverses with WHATEVER system I have set it up for. And, so forth.
This gives me FULL liberty, to do my work as I like.

With FULL meta data. I can work on one of my dad's old surveys. build a localize, that fits his brain, and work on it, and then change pages, and I am on ANYTHING I wish to set up and use. SPC. Yes. Any kind of SPC yes.

When I used TDS/Tribble, I could ONLY do one at a time. And, it was difficult to go back. To be perfectly fair, I have not used any modern Data collectors (other than the Javad), and the TDS/Trubble one I have is a 200C, with version 4.something. But from what I can tell, it only lets you work in ONE system at a time. and it changes all the coords, when you do a re-projection. The Javad lets you set up ANYTHING you want. and DO anything you want, look at the meta data, and even do a poor localize, and delete it. It's the MOST versatile of anything I can imagine.

With the Javad, I can make ANY localize I like, and SEE the Meta data, modify the Meta data, and make it do anything I want.
It has "turned me loose". I can do a "What if" without full commitment.

IF I re-projected in the TDS/Tribble system, it left my computed coords out. Since they did not have any GPS raw data. With the Javad, it's just a new window, to see it through. And, ALL the coords are seen through that window. And, they can be imported, and exported, with that system.

I love it.

N

Nate The Surveyor, post: 449291, member: 291 wrote: Page 1 is set to a local coord system, or a Low Distortion Projection. It has meta data, that has up to all 7 parameters, of a Helmert transformation.

Just to clarify. A Helmert Transformation is not the same thing as a Low Distortion Projection. An LDP is exactly like any other projection (such as State Plane, for example). It contains a projection type, a latitude and longitude of origin (and possibly other geodetic values, depending on the projection type) and a grid origin value.

A Helmert Transformation, or localization, or calibration, is a set of 7 parameters, or instructions on how to transform coordinates from one grid system to another. The parameters are translate (3D), Rotate (3D) and scale (1D). There is not necessarily any relation to planet Earth (geodetic coordinates) involved in a Helmert Transformation. The coordinates could be relative to anything (or nothing).

There are data collectors on the market today that take in a geodetic position from a receiver (such as from an NMEA string) and convert that LLH into a grid coordinate. The grid coordinate is then stored in the coordinate database. This allows the software to use plane trigonometry to calculate inverses and traverses without requiring geodesy (or a very minimal amount of geodesy). From what I gather, the data collectors made by the GNSS developers use more sophisticated geodetic coordinate databases that allow for reprojection on the fly.

The danger with many of the data collectors from the past, and I suppose from the present as well, is that they hide a lot of the clockwork involved between the LLH and the grid coordinate the operator is going to ultimately import into CAD. This makes the system more approachable, but also masks some important details. This is particularly true of localizations/calibrations.

The pages in Javad's J-Field software can best be thought of as sub-projects. All of the pages are initially set to the project coordinate system. Users can put points into multiple pages or in only one page. The pages can have the same coordinate system, or if the user desires, different coordinate systems. The coordinate display is set to whatever the coordinate system is of the active page. It's very simple to use pages or not to view and export points in various coordinate systems. Several users export both local or LDP coordinates and State Plane coordinates, for example.