Surveyor Poll - Non Traditional Students ?

A + B

D- Came to surveying after a BS in physics

For my history degree I was an "A" traditional student.

for my Surveying Degree from NMSU, I was a "B" non traditional... ie married 27 years old..

By your definition, traditional.

In truth, not really, cause I learned that traditional means the original way and not the modern way.

At the time I received my training, had two years college with 34±hrs dedicated to surveying and 50hrs additional.

My surveying began at when I was 16yrs part time and most of the surveyors I worked with then and after had no traditional background past a high school education or equivalent.

I quit several places after the TS came along because the companies refused to modernize.

They were good surveyors and taught me the hard knocks course of making surveys the correct way. They just never moved into the computerized and electronic methods we have now.

a

RADU

"While I received 6 surveying credits as part of the Civel Engineering program at Lehigh (73) which would have qualified me to be a surveyor at the time I became a PE (83) that was not my intent. By the time I decided to pursue surveying the requirements had been advanced. The next 6 surveying credits I recieved from the County College of Morris (NJ), circa 1995, would have been sufficient for the PA PLS but I lacked the required minimum of "boundary line experience" (25% minimum out of a total 5 years surveying experience) so I continued to take classes while advancing toward a degree. First I took 2 business law courses at my local community college, then legal research at Middlesex County College and real estate law at Warren County College. That was sufficient to qualify as an AS transfer student at NJIT. It took 5 years of part time surveying work after 1995 to gather up the 15 month minimum boundary line experience to begin the PLS application process."

Riveting.

Don

A, traditional, but just barely. Took 8 years to get a 4 year degree. Dad stopped financing after 2 years when it became clear that studies took a backseat to chicks and beer. Mostly paid the rest myself by working every other quarter. Settled down somewhat toward the end. My degree was a BA in Geography with a strong concentration in cartography. I have had 9 surveying classes since graduation, at two different colleges.

Stephen

Question For Stephen ?

How many surveying credits if any did you have with the Geography Degree?

Paul in PA

A/ traditional,
B/ non-traditional
C/ non-student (experience only). If you got your license by experience only, but now are seeking credits especially for a license in another state, I would put 6 credits after licensing as making you a student. Feel free to elaborate. or
D/ Other, i.e. pursuing surveying after a degree in another field.

E/ 2 years experience...then ICS two year course...another 4 years experience..FS test...another 2 years experience...PS test...ten years experience as PS...then 24 hours into a BS in Surveying...another 16 years as PS...(still learning).

Dan B. Robison, PS

Thanks Wendell For Stickying This Poll

I see a trend that many consider themselves non-tradional students.

And am surprised at the low number of experience only surveyors. From past threads regarding the education requirements. I would have thought tht number to be much larger.

I asked Wendell to sticky this thread to the top until Midnight Friday so that a greater number can reply.

I believe this question should be asked again by each state society and the again by NCEES and ABET, because it does not appear that they are fcilitating the most common track to licensure.

As a side note I had reported a few weeks ago that Thomas Edison College in New Jersey no longer has an AS or BS Surveying program on their degree list. What Thomas Edison did was to conglomerate a non traditional students widespread education into a degree. I think there is a need for some other institution to pick up such a degree program. A college that did such on a regular basis could more readily evaluate the numerous programs than for potential students around the country trying to reinvent the wheel with each local college, if that college would even entertain such an idea at all. From what I have seen on college websites the trend is that colleges want either the last 30 credits or a majority of all credits from their institution before considering one as a degree candidate.

Paul in PA

Dan, Hopefully We Are All Still Learning

I will accept E as an alternate I should have proposed.

Paul in PA

Thanks Wendell For Stickying This Poll

"I asked Wendell to sticky this thread to the top until Midnight Friday so that a greater number can reply."

Wendell, you are a saint.

Don

Thanks Wendell For Stickying This Poll

> agree. Great sticky idea Paul. Great topic... always.

The trend I'm wondering about is: Are college credits from the pre total station and GPS era (lets say into the late '70's), which consisted more of laws and proper procedures, on the same playing field as all the gizmo technology coursework which is so prevalent today?

Then there is the semester vs quarter programs. 2/yr or 3/yr. Which would give a student a more rounded education?

I know what I think, but still kind of wonder about our direction and who is driving it.

I'll Reply To The Older College Credits Question

Lehigh University, All Civil Engineers, Spring and Summer 1971 as I recall.

3 credits, Text Breed & Hosmer "Elementary Surveying" This text includes information on the Geodimeter system, Digital Terrain Models and computers. I wrote a Fortran punch card program to reduce a transit and tape traverse around an 800 acre parcel tied through an adjacent 800 acre parcel.

Precise transit work began with turning a minimum of 3D and 3R and adding them on the plates. Measurement was a minimum of out and back but typically included a second out since we were moving forward anyway. Meaning angles and distances is more easily understood when you have physically measured them rather than waiting for an EDM or data collector to do it for you. Transit or level and stadia for topo work.

3 credits, Text as above plus Meyer's "Route Surveying and Design" 3 week survey camp M-F 3 3 hour sessions, Saturday 1 3 hour session. Transit and tape field survey, topo the parcel, design a road from here to their, stake it out. Celestial observations and mapping. A hand drafting and graphics course was required the year before.

Contours are still level and water still runs downhill. Very little has changed except that mistakes can accrue much faster and they are now all on you. No time was wasted explaining trig log tables which you should have learned in high school. Since this was new at our level time was spent explaining engineering highway and railroad curve tables. Nothing has changed in 40 years in the geometrics of surveying, and in fact very little has changed since Nero burnt down Rome in his Great Urban Renewal Project.

The gizmo technology has increased the minimum required knowledge based but nothing prior to gismos can be discarded. That is why there is now enough knowledge to really fill out a 4 year degree program. Geodesy has become the realm of all surveyors rather than the few governemnt programs that had tons of staff people becaue of the capabilities of computers, so now it is a basic requirement for all. In this case the computer did not make less work just re-arranged where that work was done.

Just because you learned something different does not mean your education was wasted.

Paul in PA

I attended a 4-year, highly-regarded apprenticeship through the IUOE in Southern California, starting about 6 months after I graduated high school. I consider myself lucky to have attended this extremely thorough and well-thought-out program.

http://www.scsurveyjac.org/

Would that make me a B?

Question For Stephen ?

None at all. I recall there was one surveying class the school occasionally offered, it was probably termed "Methods for Field Data Acquisition" or something like that. I didn't take it.

But my degree did satisfy the degree requirement for two states.

Stephen

A/ Geology degree 4 yrs after high school
B/ Survey engineering degree 23 yrs after high school

Wendell ?

"THE J.A.C. WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE."

Is that because of proposed changes in surveyor programs elsewhere in the state?

A slow economy?

Or because of pending changes in the law?

IUOE, International Union of Operating Engineers, do you still have a card?

Prior to graduation I was working full time for an inspection and testing engineer. Our major project was a power plant construction site. We were the only non unionized people on the site. For some reason the other testing employees were leaning toward the Teamsters who could never sign a deal. The Operating Engineers offered to get us a contract in one day because they would honor our picket line. That is one union card I would have loved to have had.

Alas, apprentice programs do not appear to loom big in any states future.

Paul in PA

> A/ traditional,
Traditional in the sense that I attended a four year school right after High School

> B/ non-traditional
Non-traditional in the sense that after four years of study I left on my own accord without a degree because I felt that I had accomplished all I could in that environment and was ready to move on.

> C/ non-student (experience only). If you got your license by experience only, but now are seeking credits especially for a license in another state, I would put 6 credits after licensing as making you a student. Feel free to elaborate
Non-Student in the sense that my state requirements for licensing were fulfilled solely by experience

> D/ Other, i.e. pursuing surveying after a degree in another field.
Other in the sense that I spent three years in another field (media analyst and campaign manager for a political action committee) before pursuing surveying.

E) I am an experience only surveyor. I have taken many survey seminars, read lots of text books, but I never went to college.