That most certainly is not a "fact". It is not hypocritical to want better for the profession.
I too would like to see an alternative method of licensure, but the problem is that alternative doesn't yet exist. 10 years experience of indeterminate quality and breath?ÿ and two or three multiple choice exams doesnt serve us well. Associate degrees barely scratch the surface...
I don't know how to develope an alternative, but if someone else does I will support it.?ÿ
These days getting the required education?ÿ is doable while working full time anywhere in the country. It does take an investment, but it is worth it.?ÿ
FYI,?ÿ I too have a four year degree that is not in surveying.?ÿ
I'm not against a degree requirement. But, it seems that the supply isn't meeting the demand.?ÿ
That most certainly is not a "fact". It is not hypocritical to want better for the profession.
It may be by good intentions, but it certainly is hypocritical for someone who obtained their license without having a degree to say that all new licensees should be required to have a college degree.?ÿ They're creating/backing a standard for others that they themselves don't meet.
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There may be enough licensees but there are not enough boots-on-the-ground types of a trained and certified Survey Technician category that are directed daily by the licensees.?ÿ We should not expect that all field workers understand Calculus II, Physics II and Statistics and Probability II plus Boundary Law.
Above I emphasized the "directed daily" function for the licensees.?ÿ That is the component that appears to be severely lacking in our push button/software/magic box technical world.
@jitterboogie I do not disagree with you on this aspect.?ÿ I've seen a few situations where once a licensing board instituted mandatory education, in a very narrow sense, for land surveyors, the number of applications almost completely dried up.
I, like you, have no issue with education.?ÿ But I do have an issue with only allowing for a very narrow scope of education which turns into a much higher hurdle.
I honestly don't mind the dwindling number of surveyors.?ÿ There's no shortage until all licensed surveyors are making over $100k, and no one has to undercut and be the low-baller.
That said, I don't agree with protectionism, creating rules just to keep other people out.
@holy-cow?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿCorrect, I keep hearing that there are not enough Licensed Surveyors. Since 1976 it has appeared to me that there are not enough skilled people that want to work. You can raise a family on what a Cad Manager or a Party Chief makes, but few want to put in the effort to get there.
Carefully reread the Colorado Statute.
Option (IV) (A) Have obtained a bachelor's degree in a nonsurveying curriculum;?ÿ
Point this out to the Board, the question is, the Board has not brought to your attention any specific course work you are required to take by rule and then get consideration of your experience. In PA once you become an LSIT your experience resets to zero, however education can be substituted for experience. Ascertain if your experience must be from the LSIT date.
Main points of other Option IV requirements;
(B) Specific course work by rule.
(C) 6 years experience.
(D) Have been enrolled as an LSIT in CO.
I had to point out specific parts of the PA law to the PA Board when I applied here.
Paul in PA
@jph respectively, no one HAS to undercut and be the low-baller now!?ÿ But unfortunately, I don't believe that thinking will change regardless of what the average minimum salary is in the marketplace.?ÿ But I get your point.
@warrenward I learned things 25 years ago that I'm still trying to unlearn.?ÿ It's just as easy to learn bad habits from "mentors" as it is good habits.
Spot on criticism of ABET degrees.?ÿ
Do any States actually require an ABET degree. I know many make applying easier because an ABET degree automatically qualifies, but most seem to allow other degrees.?ÿ
Lets stop perpetuating the myth that an ABET degree is required (except in any state where they are if there are any).?ÿ
Tell the state board not us.?ÿ
I only have an AA degree in general ed, partying mostly, but I have been licensed for 34 years and have been rather successful, some might say. Yes, I was a good test taker, after studying 15 hours a week for four months, but I didn't get in the door without the required, verified experience.?ÿ
I have had MANY staff with four year degrees from ABET programs over the years. Honestly, the quality has always been about the person, not a degree. The most arrogant "Know it Alls" I have ever encountered had 4 year surveying degrees. Don't recall one who came up through the experience path. I removed myself from mentoring "Know it Alls" probably 20 years ago. Too bad for them.
I had to point out specific parts of the PA law to the PA Board when I applied here.
Same for me with the District of Columbia; had to cut and paste their own regulation into an email to them.
I realize that my opinion will not be well received by some on the forum and in particular, I doubt that Mr./Ms. Horseshoes.handregades will appreciate my candor. I decided to wait a few days to reduce the stridency in my opinion, but the wait may not have have had the desired effect. Permit me to be plain spoken. In my opinion, you are not qualified to become a licensed PLS in Colorado??.at least not yet. My reason for holding that opinion is your lack of fully researching the requirements for licensure and understanding the qualification sections of the Colorado Revised Statutes and the Board Rules, esp. those that directly apply to your situation. For example, a licensed surveyor in Colorado is required by ?? 1.6.E.2 Responsibility to Research Records of the Architects, Professional Engineers, and Professional Land Surveyors Rules and Regulations to:
The licensed professional land surveyor shall conduct or be responsible for conducting such research activities that are needed to properly define the property boundary relative to instruments of record and show all visible evidence that may affect ownership and property rights. This may include record research at the County Clerk and Recorder's Office, the Colorado Department of Highways, the State Office of the Bureau of Land Management, the County Surveyor's Office, an abstracter's office, and any other appropriate local offices; as well as field research of physical features and monuments and any other features significant in the locality. Instruments of record may be obtained from an abstract, title commitment, or title policy.
I know this sounds harsh, but if you were unable to properly research the education requirements for licensure, I am concerned that you do not have the necessary skills and expertise to meet the professional responsibilities of a licensed PLS.
You state that you are heart broken, frustrated and depressed, but being a licensed professional can come with some hard lessons. You are the sole person responsible for understanding the licensure requirements and how they apply to your education and experience. If you are uncertain about something, by all means make an inquiry to the Board. Ultimately, you are the one in ??responsible charge? regarding your application.
For applicants seeking initial licensure, there are four pathways to meet the education and experience qualifications for land surveyors. They are fully described in ?? 12-120-213. Qualifications for professional land surveyor, specifically, subsection (2)(b), which I have listed below for completeness:
(I) (A) Have graduated from a board-approved surveying curriculum of four or more years; and
(B) Have two years of progressive land surveying experience under the supervision of a professional land surveyor or an exempted federal employee defined in section 12-120-303(1)(b); and
(C) Have been enrolled as a land surveyor-intern in this state; or
(II) (A) Have graduated from a nonboard-approved surveying curriculum of four or more years; and
(B) Have four years of progressive land surveying experience of which at least two must be under the supervision of a professional land surveyor or an exempted federal employee as defined in section 12-120-303 (1)(b); and
(C) Have been enrolled as a land surveyor-intern in this state; or
(III) (A) Have graduated from a board-approved two-year surveying curriculum or from a four-year engineering curriculum that included surveying course work as specified by the board by rule; and
(B) Have six years of progressive land surveying experience of which four years shall have been under the supervision of a professional land surveyor or an exempt federal employee as defined under section 12-120-303 (1)(b); and
(C) Have been enrolled as a land surveyor-intern in this state; or
(IV) (A) Have obtained a bachelor's degree in a nonsurveying curriculum;
(B) Have completed surveying and other related course work, as specified by the board by rule;
(C) Have six years of progressive land surveying experience, of which four years shall have been under the supervision of a professional land surveyor or an exempted federal employee as defined in section 12-120-303 (1)(b); and
(D) Have been enrolled as a land surveyor-intern in this state.
Please note that the last option includes this statement ??[h]ave completed surveying and other related course work, as specified by the board by rule.? You should carefully read ?? 1.4 Rules of Administrative Procedure of the Architects, Professional Engineers, and Professional Land Surveyors Rules and Regulations. In particular, the land surveying sections addressing education are under section 1.4.G.2. The AES Board website has both the statutes and board rules.
Paul in PA cited ?? 12-120-213. (2)(b)(IV) in a prior post, but you can also choose to graduate from a Board approved two-year surveying program. In your opening post you erroneously assert that,
??Not only that, but Colorado has one survey program in the whole state located 4 hours from denver with no online teaching.?ÿ So if I must go back to college, I'll be paying out of state tuition.?
The program that you refer to is offered by Western Colorado Community College/Colorado Mesa University. They offer two options, an Associate of Applied Science in Land Surveying and Geomatics and a Technical Certificate in Land Surveying and Geomatics. The program is taught by a good friend and professional peer, Mr. Tom Sylvester. Tom is an excellent land surveyor and consummate professional who cares deeply about his students. His formal education is as an Engineer of Mines from the Colorado School of Mines. Here is the link to the two programs so you can evaluate the requirements of both programs. If KScott reads and responds to this, he likely will say that I'm understating Mr. Sylvester's qualities.
For completeness here are the synopsis for both programs of study:
Land Surveying and Geomatics Associate of Applied Science
The Land Surveying and Geomatics program prepares students to use equipment that is an integral part of land development for engineering, construction and planning projects. Students learn to measure elevations, use equipment to measure on or below the surface of the earth and use technology to process data. Through this program, students will gain the knowledge that is needed for state certification.
Land Surveying and Geomatics Technical Certificate
WCCC/CMU have a post-baccalaureate certificate offered online, which allows individuals across Colorado ?? and in surrounding states ?? to complete 20 hours of surveying-specific course work. This course work is combined with an internship/capstone project that equates to an additional four credit hours. This certificate allows students who have a baccalaureate degree, but who do not have sufficient surveying-related course work to successfully pass the Colorado-required exam to attain a Professional Surveyor License.
I strongly urge you to contact Mr. Sylvester and discuss the programs with him. I stated before that your statement was incorrect (see my underlining). The two programs currently have 33 students enrolled with only four students on campus. It is most definitely a distant learning program. And you will pay in-state tuition. I discussed the programs with Tom yesterday, and he asked me to post his college email address tsylvester@coloradomesa.edu. He also said that of his students, approx. 60% of them have a four-year non-surveying degree.
Also, the AES Board??s monthly meetings are now virtual and anyone wishing to listen to the Board??s business can register for the webinars on the AES Board??s website. I listened to the Board meeting of October, 9, 2020 where Mr. Sylvester made a presentation to the Board on the WCCC/CMU surveying programs. The Board had effusive praise for the program and the official minutes of the meeting state, ??Biennial Review ?? Colorado Mesa University??s Curriculum ?? A motion was made??.and carried [unanimously] to accept the curriculum as it continues to meet the statutes and rules for a qualified land surveying degree.?
Before contacting the Board, please read Board Rule 1.8 Rules of Board Procedure. It provides guidance on how to submit a petition to the AES Board. It is my hope that you take this next bit of advice. Do NOT petition the Board. Your position appears to be that you should not be subject to the current education requirement because it is not ??fair.? While the Board has discretion in how to deal with many issues, it does not have discretionary authority to waive requirements in the Colorado Revised Statutes based on someone's notion of equity. Your situation is not equivalent to a jury in a criminal trial determining that the law is unfair and based solely on that, they acquit the defendant by nullification. The AES Board does not have the authority to nullify a statute that they determine is inequitable. You are of course free to do as you wish.
Lastly, I am also a geologist with a B.S. in geological engineering and a graduate degree in hydrogeology. On a personal level, I sympathize with your predicament. I believe Colorado should have kept an apprentice route to licensure. In fact, I was the only PLS that testified against House Bill 10-1085. It contained three main provisions: created a land surveyor??s affidavit of correction; added an education qualification to include a bachelor??s degree in a non-surveying curriculum with additional board-approved surveying courses (your degree in geology was formally recognized by this); and elimination of the apprentice-only route to licensure. The bill originally had the apprentice-only route sunsetting in 2025, but negotiations with DORA the day the bill was heard by the House committee changed that to 2020. I have always found it odd that the architects and professional engineers both retain apprentice routes to licensure in Colorado. Only land surveyors seemed compelled to eliminate the apprentice route.
Hey Gene,
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Do you have any tally of the Licenses that the degree program surveyor license seeking people have actually matriculated in the past 5 years?
In New Mexico, I know that the most recent stats for Engineers matriculating was healthy, and the surveying was just 2 LSIT and 4 Surveyors,( by commity i think) and 4 retiring in 2020(might have been 2019 stats) and have a deep curiosity of how Colorado is doing with their process.
Thanks for testifying, its pretty sad more people didn't think it was important enough.
Hey Gene,
?ÿ
Do you have any tally of the Licenses that the degree program surveyor license seeking people have actually matriculated in the past 5 years?
In New Mexico, I know that the most recent stats for Engineers matriculating was healthy, and the surveying was just 2 LSIT and 4 Surveyors,( bu commity i think) and 4 retiring in 2020(might have been 2019 stats) and have a deep curiosity of how Colorado is doing with their process.
Thanks for testifying, its pretty sad more people didn't think it was important enough.
Hi Gene. I appreciate your candor. My original post was definitely posted, in hindsight, as a outlet for my frustrations. I learned a long time ago that when problems arise I look at myself first as the root cause. While my post may not read that way, that is how I??ve felt. It is definitely my fault that I did not confirm my educational status with the board and made assumptions regarding my educational acceptance after supplying the materials necessary for review for my FS exam. They never mentioned none of my prior education was accepted, just that I was approved to take the FS. I do wish that they still required approval prior to PS examination, however.?ÿ
I understand your thought process about my ??inability? to complete record research, but that??s simply not true. Obviously, I have nothing to back that up other than the appearance on the face of my posting. ?ÿI??m a diligent, observant surveyor the same way I was a diligent, observant geologist, as geologist and scientists tend to be.?ÿ
I have met Tom. He took time out of his personal life to drive to the front range and present a class for the PLSC review courses I attended prior to my FS exam. While I can??t speak regarding him on a personal relationship level, my respect for him started off on a strong footing. I looked through the WCCC website to see if they had an online offering, but it was brief and didn??t see one. Once again attesting to my record research abilities. ?????ÿ
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I have come to realize that further education is inevitable, but accruing more debt is something I??ll have to discuss with my better half before I pull that trigger.
As I??ve thought about all the posts people have made, I still believe a non-degree option should be available. I also believe that those with 4-year degrees should complete 4 years of progressive, boots on the ground experience because we all know most probably go straight into an office role for their 2 years experience post graduation. Not all people??s paths to Surveyor??s Enlightenment are the same and I wish it was feasible to review each applicant individually. Maybe someday we can because there won??t be many new surveyors seeking licensure...
@jitterboogie No I don't have any info on that, nor do I believe that there is an education breakdown of applicants that is publicly available. If you want to inquire further about this, I suggest making a request under CORA which is the Colorado Open Records Act. If DORA has any info that would be the only way I know to obtain it. I don't have a link, but I bet Google will.
A humorous side note about my testimony ten years ago. I provided written testimony to both the House and Senate committees in which I noted discrepancies in the proposed legislation. Without going into the weeds, the education provisions were markedly different depending on which education/experience provision an applicant fell under. At the Senate hearing, the committee chair was interested in seeing the discrepancies cured. She asked the bill sponsor, Senator Abel Tapia if he'd be willing to talk to me about it and possibly offer amendments to the full Senate to attain consistency in the education provisions.
Finally the humorous part. One of the surveyors who testified for the bill was enraged that a surveyor who was not a member of the state surveying society was permitted to modify THEIR bill. I had declined to accept a complimentary membership for 2010 that was offered as a thank you for being a speaker at the surveying society's 2009 fall conference. I knew I was going to testify against the bill and didn't feel comfortable accepting a free membership. After my testimony, I paid my 2010 dues. I was told that when the angry surveyor found out I was a member in good standing, he was "less" angry. I kept my distance from him after that. 🙂
