I've made my opinion of that specific article known before, so I will refrain from rehashing it.
However, it still blows my mind that education is dead last on that graphic...
...and then I remember how many folks, including many on this board, continue to argue against education and claim that all classroom learning is worthless, and oftentimes that higher education is indoctrination for [insert conspiracy theory du jour].
But at the same time, every surveyor without a degree possesses the magic secret to [insert something about boundary resolution], and also they are more qualified to teach every single subject a surveyor would encounter in a university, better than the subject matter experts with professional licenses and master's or PhDs, in a shorter amount of time and also do it while working full time.
We have always had a disproportionate amount of anti-intellectualism in this country, and it ain't getting any better. If Richard Hofstadter were still around he would have enough new material to win another Pulitzer.
Everybody hates to admit their weaknesses, but we all have them.?ÿ Some are wheeler-dealer traders who could start with a pocket knife with only one good blade found alongside a dusty road and end up with a car (Tom Joad in The Grapes of Wrath).?ÿ Others are the guy who started with a car and ended up with a broken pocket knife.?ÿ Some feasted on math and science classes all through their school days.?ÿ Others were the artists and rebels to convention.?ÿ Some are incredibly outgoing and social while others will not converse with anyone unless forced to do so.?ÿ Those who currently carry the label of SURVEYOR match all of those descriptions.?ÿ There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but some ways become more fun and profitable than others.
The science of surveying can be conveyed more succinctly via classroom training.?ÿ The art of surveying is learned in the field.?ÿ Being the best at sniffing out old monuments does not automatically mean that person can have a lengthy discussion on geoids and epochs.?ÿ It's possible, but not as likely as one who learned the science first and then learned the sniffing art.?ÿ Safety training, for example, is needed by all of us because, if something doesn't seem to occur very often if at all, we tend to forget the importance.?ÿ The result, though, is the same when it does happen, and it probably will eventually.
Having in your possession what you believe to be the best hammer invented does not mean you must have that wonderful hammer in order to do some high percentage of the work surveyors do.?ÿ The best answers are not necessarily those that can be determined in an isolated laboratory in the world of surveying.?ÿ Many times those best answers can only be found with boots on the ground, muck, mire, %&A#^%$.?ÿ It takes a lifetime of learning, both in the classroom and in the field, to keep up with Jones and Son Surveying Company.
Just want to add again that boundary law is even harder to learn through experience than the technical side of what we do.?ÿ
Sniffing out the monuments is a skill that cant be tought in the classroom, but it is also a skill that is missing from many applicants' experience. It's a very hard skill for a board to assess.
When I started Surveying, in 1975, I didn't think you could teach Surveying in a classroom. I learned, on a 3-man crew, from licensed surveyors that didn't have a degree. I was never more than 100' away from the party chief and learned from example. Other professionals, Architects, Engineers, Doctors and Lawyers would all go on to work at their professions in rooms. A Survey did most of his work out doors. You couldn't teach how to find corners or chain, or cut line in a classroom. Hell, I think you could take the fieldnotes, from some of the surveyors I worked with, and record them as records of surveys. All done outside.?ÿ
I don't think that's true today; you are lucky to work on a 2-man crew today and both of you have about the same experience. You are usually several hundred feet apart and most of the work is already done for you, in the office, loaded into your data collector and all you need to do is walk up and find/or set the mark. Learning in the field is a thing of the past, if you want to get things done as quickly as possible. There's no time for it; unless you want to put the time in.
So I think the classroom is essential today, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest. Good luck on your road to Licensure!
@williwaw I totally agree that understanding and really knowing certain parts of our profession are essential. Especially with todays tech. But is it absolutely necessary that that knowledge come by way of a 4 year degree? Couldn't we make the exams more inclusive of these topics to test for competency? I mean if you know something, you know it right?
Most professions require a minimum of four years of successful college education that is sequential in nature so as to provide the student the tools along the way that become essential in the upper level studies.?ÿ Several require a minimum of six years (Veterinary Medicine and Pharmacy, for example).?ÿ Then there is a minimum period of experience required (another four to six years) before even being allowed to apply to take the licensing exams.?ÿ There goes another six months of your life, or more, if you succeed on the first attempt, which a high percent do not.?ÿ Then you start all over in life attempting to prove to your employers or clients that you have met the basic level expected in that profession.?ÿ That is to get to square one in being able to carry the label, "Professional".
Is surveying a profession??ÿ Do common citizens toss a certain amount of respect in your direction because you get to add some initials after your signature?
This is not an occupation that revolves around certifications.?ÿ I have seen city workers with about 50 little frames on their office wall proudly stating that person is a certified something-or-other.?ÿ That basically means they attended from one to a dozen sessions involving a very specific subject to earn their framed certificate.?ÿ It does not elevate them to the level of a professional if they have 50 such frames on their wall.?ÿ Attendance is what qualifies them as opposed to a highly comprehensive examination that may require up to eight hours or more after going through the vetting process to even be allowed to attend the examination.
Should surveying be classified in with all the other certifications or should it be a truly validated procedure leading to the potential to be allowed to sit for challenging examinations?
What are the abilities that the public would hope a licensed surveyor possess??ÿ Is it simply finding four bars around a lot in a subdivision laid out five years ago and drawing a nifty picture of where the improvements exist??ÿ Is it being able to model an existing bridge over a large river??ÿ Is it being able to tell the various contractors exactly where each component of the replacement bridge should go??ÿ Is it proving to an insurance company that the improvements on a certain tract of ground exist in the proper locations and quantities??ÿ Is it working in a mine to direct drilling equipment??ÿ Is it being able to confirm elevations in the correct format anywhere within the borders of your licensed areas??ÿ Is it underwater surface modeling??ÿ Is it being able to look at the overall scope of very long highway construction so as to break it into shorter pieces so as to more accurately report data??ÿ Some of the above, all the above or only one of the above plus many more examples?
I am not going to spec out construction components on a 1000 foot-high building because I simply do not know how to do that.?ÿ But, the guy who does has a framed license hanging on his office wall that looks nearly identical to mine.?ÿ There is the catch with the current surveying licensure situation.?ÿ Engineering has well recognized specialties within the field of engineering practice: Civil, Electrical, Mechanical, Nuclear, Biological and Agricultural, Chemical, Military, Industrial and on and on.?ÿ Architecture has similar specialties: Interior, Landscape, Structural.?ÿ Veterinary Medicine has Large Animal, Small Animal, Avian, Reptilian.
Until the process of surveying licensure is more clearly validated we are simply running around chasing our own tails because our tail is what we recognize as being superior to all other tails.
I'm always struck by the mean age of the assembled surveyors at our conferences.?ÿ
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Probably should have used Average age instead ?????ÿ
I'm thinking both the mean and the average are way to close to retirement age with surveyors.?ÿ
I think you nailed it the first time.lol
Idaho has gone down from a peak of 59+ to right at 57. A bit early to say it has turned around, but there are other good signs.
I don't take it as an attack. And as said, I have a degree, and I'm not going after any more licenses.?ÿ?ÿ
I just have the opinion that there should be an alternative for those who are in this line of work to obtain their license without having to go back to school and spend the time and money for a degree.?ÿ?ÿ
And for anyone who has no degree to want to require future licensees to have one is hypocritical. That's not an opinion, that's fact
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Yeah... average age, gender, ethnic heritage.
Having gone through many diversity training sessions in the last few years, university level classes and less formal, whenever I'm at a surveyor's meeting or conference I look around and say to myself "We're not getting this part right."
This has always been a sensitive topic. I'm sure to offend many. But my several main mentors were all very poor mentors and they taught me many bad habits. They would argue about who's junk was the correct junk. One lone good mentor I had did have a related science degree. now there are NO mentors.The obvious fact is that my predecessors were obviously very professional for the most part, but that we implemented a state board and numerous increas I ng requirements precisely because there were enough "poor mentors" to warrant improvements. In my numerous testimonies in our state legislature since 1996, the most common reaction from our society representatives was "college for surveyors? Are you kidding? What could be so hard? Who do they think they are"?
Thirty to forty years ago I had the same thoughts.?ÿ Now I look around the room and try to guess which ones might be older than me.
Part of the bottom line on this is that our birth rate has generally declined for many years.?ÿ When I was a youngster.?ÿ We had local families with five to eight kids all over.?ÿ Four and above was extremely common.?ÿ My household had only two kids.?ÿ That was rare.?ÿ I can only remember one fellow student who was an only child.?ÿ He was four years older than me.?ÿ The next house down the road from him had six kids born in the span of seven years.
I used to get that reaction too, and not just at the Statehouse. Looking around the room in any meeting it was easy to see why. We are perceived the way we present. Putting on a well fitting suit and clean, polished shoes doesn't make us any smarter. It absolutely will get us a better seat at nearly every policy table.
My locker has boots, clothes for any weather and 40 years of accumulated gadgets that make me effective in recovering evidence. I also have a tie and jacket at the ready 100% of the time. Along with the wardrobe I stay ready for questions. Chief anong them is, What do surveyors do that demands so much education and experience? If you ask me that question, make sure you brought a lunch.
Most of the time you will not get this question directly. You will get auestions that alliw you to show the answer. I don't mean toot your own horn. Just be ready with fact based answers and communicate them well. Over time it has an effect.
In the meantime we have changes to deal with. Our structure has changed. The way prospective surveyors learn has changed, along with what we need to know. For those who learn outside of a classroom we should work for a path to licensure. Eliminating education requirements isn't the answer. I believe finding ways to transcript experience and challenge exams is a better way. This is especially true in the current environment. Boards need to demonstrate objective, independent standards or they will cease to exist.
By the way, this same conversation has been going on for at least 30 years.
As I've said, I support a path to licensure for a non-degreed person.
However, I also align with those opposed to the idea that the criteria, i.e., standards, should be changed (one could characterize as lowered) because the criteria is difficult to attain.
On the other hand, a comprehensive review of the criteria/standards, and modifications of them based on the review isn't unreasonable.
I'm not familiar with Colorado's rules, but going by the posts in this thread, there does appear to be a path to obtaining a Colorado license for H-handgrenades. If a Colorado license is the goal, take that path.