paden cash, post: 337137, member: 20 wrote: I always try to make myself available to my close clients. I get very little after hours chatter, but when I do it is usually important.
It could be worse. Be thankful you don't have to fill out an "RFI" (Request For Information) and wait four days to get a question answered. (Or even worse, wait four days to get a reply from a Request stating, "Why do you want to know that ?") :pinch:
Paden, many years ago I was on a project for a government organization. As project engineer one of my duties was to formulate, submit, log, and receive answers to RFI's. One of the favorite (or at least most used) answers from the architect was, "How did you plan to perform this when you bid the job?" Then we would have to resubmit, with a different explanation, wait another week or so and maybe get an answer. That is one of the reasons I left construction, took a pay cut, and went back to surveying.
Andy
I was working in CM when I took and passed the LS exam.
That job did not agree with me, I had anxiety attacks and would wake up in panic mode totally soaked even in the middle of winter.
Sounds like there just needs to be communication about expectations. Give the surveyor a call and discuss their availability. If they do not work after hours, for whatever reason, then work around it. If a job continues through the weekend then have a conversation before the work week is over and discuss any forseen needs that might arise that weekend and have the surveyor get you that information before they leave for the weekend. If everyone has their heads in the game it should not be that hard to determine these needs. Just my opinion....
My standard gripe involves people who always only work 9-5 but expect you to perform miracles overnight or over a weekend to meet their needs. Try calling a title company employee or attorney at home or on their cell (if you ever get a hold of such information).
To me it always seems like the ol' cliche' ....you give then an inch and they take a mile. It starts off small.. a call here...a text there...then it goes down that slippery slope and a '5 minute' phone call becomes texts, phone calls, emails, etc at all hours. I've been there and I'm not doing that anymore. We all need to draw the line somewhere.
PS...my NY Giants suck.
A few more random thoughts...
I would not do any job of any size without a contract. Most E and O carriers won't cover you without one. I say most on the off chance it isn't all.
Since the advent of inexpensive cell phones, the line between work and play has blurred if not disappeared. The results are unhealthy for businesses, employees and families. Taking my wife to dinner can change from a pleasant surprise to a huge disappointment with one of those '5 minute calls'. On the flip side, what if I interrupt a staff meeting to chat with my brother for 'just 5 minutes'....
I'll stick with my original assessment. If you want me on weekends it better not be a surprise. Neither of us will enjoy the Monday conversation...
You guys are not hurting my feelings or beating up on me. I wanted honest opinions and am getting them.
Real estate surveys, flood certs, etc all that stuff can be M-F but this is oilfield work. Everyone knows the oilfield runs non stop. If you don't want to deal with that no problem but don't sign on to a project knowing that it is 7 days a week and then go into a cave on the weekends leaving a crew of people from out of town staying in motels trying to finish their work so they can go see their families in a bind.
As to the contracts I have been in this line of work 21 years and probably 75% of my work is without contracts. Most my invoices are six figures. I have a good group of clients and we operate on a handshake. The good ol boy network I guess. Some companies require contracts and I do them and if I have a new client or am unsure of them I do one. I have another client who is a major corporation and their company policy is no contracts for any work unless the amount is over 1 million.
Most of the time when we have a surveyor involved I only need to talk to him a couple times or a couple emails per project. I don't even have this guys email and I have only called him once before.
Self moderated, never mind.
Almost 100% of my jobs have contracts. 99% of those are "Letter" contracts, basically a 1 page letter. The other 1% are mostly 100 page monstrosities from construction contractors that are intended for use with trades. When the work is limited, I ask for budget to have the monstrosity read by my attorney (even though our E&O insurer will do it for free, and typically propose dozens of modifications). That sometimes makes the contract go away, one way or the other.
I take it, then, that this surveyor is not in your G.O.B. network. I understand your frustration, but, then, we haven't heard his side. I'd guess you won't be hiring this guy the next time you need survey help, and that is understandable. Survey services come at different rates because not all are the same.
Agree in general with the above. Someone who is there when needed is very valuable and worth the extra cost in that type of job. If this guy took on a job and wasn't up front with being restricted to only his working hours, he should have been.
On your end, at the onset of the agreement, he should have been asked if he could be available to answer questions and help out as needed. Having someone "on call" should be part of the contract for sure. You might be a handshake and do what you agreed on type guy, and he may be the same. But you have a poor agreement (verbal or otherwise), if both parties have a different expectation than the other. It's definitely a contract thing and not a one guy is the bad guy thing. (unless he said he would be available any time outside regular work hours).
So I am one of the 8-5 (actually 7-4) Monday to Friday guys. And frankly outside of those hours, is my time. Time that I value, and time where I do not want to, nor care to involve myself with work matters. If a client makes prior arrangements, I can make myself available after hours, or weekends, but I am not going to interrupt a romantic dinner with my wife so I can answer your quickie question. If you are wasting time and money, waiting for me, you know my hours, you should have had the forethought to catch me at that time.
Now that being said...... I was once upon a time an oilfield surveyor. My billing rate at that time (12 years ago) is about 1.8 times what it is now. All that extra, went towards willingness to work 320 hour months, 70 days on without a day off, and being available at all hours of the day. Great for a young single guy, but not anything I want to be doing now.
I am guessing your surveyor, is not assigned to the entire project. He probably has a contract to fulfill specific duties when called, to a total of 10 or 15 days, and his contract reflects the hours worked.
I worked the construction of a gas plant, and our contract was to have surveyors there 18 hours a day, every day until things came online, just to be available at any given moment, in the event we were needed. Big dollars, but it was what was needed to build a plant in 90 days.
Education is expensive, you know to revise your survey contracts for next time. In the meantime, figure what this is costing you, and offer to renumerate the surveyor for his after hours assistance. $100 or $150 per phone call would likely be agreeable to both of you.
I work to be able to support my family. I already give work the majority of my productive hours. Work priorities generally take precedence M-F, with flexibility from about 6 AM to 7 PM, outside of that, family needs take precedence. Someone wants me to alter my priorities outside of the 50 to 60 hours per week that their needs are placed before my family's, they should be prepared to pay for the value I place on that time, not 1.5 times the going rate, and certainly not at my normal billing rate. If they want me to be obligated to take a call on a Sunday, be ready to pay 2 to 3 times my regular rate at a 4-hour minimum charge, even if only answering a 5 minute phone call. If my non-availability for a 5 minute call has the potential to shut down their whole operation and cost them several thousand dollars before Monday morning, then my terms should seem like a bargain.
I am always reachable, except if I am on a plane. My office phone either forwards immediately to my cell, or it will forward after 30 seconds or so if I forget to forward it. My clients can tell stories about calling me (unknowingly) when I am in Hawaii, Malaysia, Europe, South America, and many other places that are time zones away. My main contact at the local Corps of Engineers office (now retired) would always first ask me what time it was when I answered. But, I usually let current clients know when I will be in a different time zone. I spent the last four days in Mexico, but was on a conference call yesterday.
The client that we do a lot of photo control for knows that we sometimes work on weekends, and he is always available to answer any questions or concerns we might have. Their flight crews also have to be available to work any of the 365 days a year, even holidays due to weather windows.
However, I do realize there are many people who are only available 9 to 5. It should of course be clarified up front if that is important.
The calls I get on the weekend go something like "can you leave for X today" or "can you meet Chief Y at Z tomorrow at 7am?"
Those always give me a shot of adrenaline especially if I'm midway into a Saturday morning lazy session. Suddenly I'm making phone calls, searching for pen and paper, incident numbers, order numbers, phone numbers, etc.
Interesting thread. I've been around a while and unless otherwise specified and agreed to(translates to 'compensated in accordance for intererupting my time') by the Boss or outlined in a contract....when I am off work I am off work and off limits to your work related needs. Period. I work so that I can do the things I want to do, not the other way around. Work does not give out personal cell numbers and my cell # only goes out to those special clients...which immediately excludes all contractors.
Intersting perspectives from most people on here.
In my industry work is slow right now. I basically will do whatever it takes to keep my clients happy. Last night I was answering work related emails until 11PM. Sure it cuts in to family time but my clients appreciate us going the extra mile and we have been staying fairly busy while many of competitors are sitting at home with no work.
Everyone can choose how they want to run their business and do what they want but I have learned from this. I have nothing against professional surveyors and I think they are very skilled individuals. I really do think the precisions they have to deal with and their ability to decipher all the boundary issues, ancient monuments, etc is nothing short of amazing. However in my line of work they seem to cause delays. The thing of it is nothing that I do actually requires a RPLS. For some reason though sometimes our clients hire one to help and it seems we are always waiting on them. The type of work we do isn't what a surveyor normally does and from my experience they are not set up to do it well. In the future if I am on a project with a RPLS involved I am going to have a contract with a clause for delays caused by them.
Again don't read this a a bash against surveyors as it is not. If you hired the best architect in the world to build a doghouse you would likely be disappointed. Sure he has the knowledge and credentials to do it but it is not the type of thing he does on daily basis. A run of the mill carpenter could probably do a better job quicker than the best architect.
Sometimes I have wondered if timelines on many projects are entirely too tight to begin with. Not much room, if any, for a weather hiccup. Not much room, if any for any hiccup really. A delivery comes late to a construction site because a truck breaks down, another day is needed to perform research, whatever. A computer crashes.
Way too many variables to control all the time, yet we try every day. We often succeed, sometimes we don't.
We had the power flicker here couple times within 5 minutes today. If it had stayed out, some things would simply not get done. Is that within our power to control? Granted, we don't even have ups's here, but still.....
Drilldo,
To be honest with you I answer my phone and do alot of work after hours and on weekends. The RPLS probably saw that you were doing work he think he should be doing, and when you called, he might of thought well if this guys want to be a Surveyor he can figure it out, or wait till office hours to call me. I am not going to bend over backwards to help a guy doing a job I should be doing.
I have been on alot of projects everyone is in a rush to start, but everytime I say I can not start till I have a sign contact or need a retainer , everything slows down and they say well we have a week or so before we need you.
I think we can sum this up with a few short words 'failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part'. This is one of the many reasons why I never work for contractors, ever.
Granted, I do work on a lot of construction projects..just not for the contractor. We require 72 hours notice to set construction stakes. Sure, we try to accomodate them if we can but when we can't, we can't. A little planning goes a long way.