How much.....? What does it cost.......? I need to know the price of......
Usually, that is the type of first question a telephone call's survey price shopper asks.
Take your car to a mechanic, and ask, "how much to fix my car?" Well, what do you want done to it?
Go to a dentist. "How much do you charge to fix my tooth?" Well, what is wrong with it?
Go to an attorney. "How much will it cost to get some legal help?" Well, what kind of help do you need?
These are all loaded questions, and so begins the data extraction to tailor a survey for the potential client's needs.
Red flag: Cost was the first question. Time and experience would be for me to say twenty thousand dollars, more or less, and see what happens.
Time and experience has taught me that a price shopper is phoning around to find the cheapest land surveyor when they ask "how much" as the first thing they say. I just finished a second phone call with a woman after I reviewed the on-line tax parcel maps and worked up a cost estimate to survey about 6 acres of land, cut out a 2 acre parcel and provide two parcel descriptions and a driveway easement description for the 2 acre parcel. A section corner was the northwest corner, and I have been there and know where it is. Road frontage on two sides with corner markers supposedly in place for three of the four corners with a public road bounding two sides. Not too bad of a survey, land is partially clear, GPS work for over half the survey, conventional total station work for the remainder, and set 4 or 5 corner markers. I give a telephone quote after about 20 minutes worth of my time.
Red flag was confirmed when she said that a surveyor over in another town quoted $XXXX to do the work, which was a little less that I had quoted. That is a good thing, since my fees seem to be in alignment with other area surveyors. I do not want a reputation for being "the cheapest surveyor." Only one of the "best surveyors around."
Being the highly experience businessman that I am (?), I had a choice to make. This really comes down to ethics.. I was beat over the head with another surveyor's price. I have seen this before, too. I had the "opportunity" to lower my price in order to beat the other surveyor out of a job. The caller was hoping that I would take the bait and do just exactly that. "Nope," I though to myself. I am not going to do that to a fellow surveyor and businessman. I am busy enough, so I told her that there were some good surveyors in that town, and wished her the best. Call me back if you need me. Thank you for calling. 'Bye.
I have a file absolutely filled with price shopper quotes from callers who never called back. I have been burned in the past by not doing a somewhat thorough records search from my computer files and internet maps and tax office websites, and quoting a job for too little money. Long ago, when on-line aerial photographs were not available, I drove to the property to do a visual inspection as a part of building an accurate quote. Now, recent aerial photography is available on the internet, and makes visual inspection much easier. Some jobs still require a field visit, but my price shopper people get the on-line map inspection and a few questions about the recent history of the property (fields, woods land, pine plantations, recent cutover, etc.).
I have plenty of work to do, and my backlog is a couple of months out. I have encourage callers to call someone else that maybe can get to it a little sooner than I could. I am reluctant to take a job knowing that it may be four to six weeks away from me even getting down to it on my list. Most callers "need it by Friday," and think they can just come by the drive-through window and get the survey map or "plak." I have shocked many people by going through the normal process I use to do a property boundary survey, from public records research to ground research through survey computations and drafting. Really, most people have no clue.
How much does a good mechanic spend on his tools? A doctor's office with a lot of testing equipment and trained personnel is expensive to own and operate. An attorney's case files and records are the result of years of work. A farmer owns a single tractor that costs a quarter of a million dollars, and has to have a lot of other $$$ equipment. My GPS system costs about this much $$$ and my total station cost $$$. My loaded ATV is worth about $$$. *shock*
Diplomacy and being nice to callers goes a long way. Being nice to price shoppers is just another part of business. If they come to my office with their deed in hand and are specific on what they need first and ask about cost last, I can work with them. I can even judge by their response of how my first quote hit them. On the spot fee adjustment may be in order if I need the work. The first price was a "not to exceed" number; but I anticipate the final cost to be $$$$. That usually wins them over and I get the authority to proceed most of the time.
Here is Northeast Mississippi, we are still in the mid-80's during the daytime, and down to the mid-60's at night. It is VERY dry here, and very dusty, with no water in the little creeks and very little water in the large creeks. It takes a sledgehammer to drive pins in this concrete-like ground. In February, I can push them in the ground with my hands. Being able to work six days a week is taking its toll. My office work is piling up.
Y'all be safe and careful out there. Winter is coming.
Lowering your price to beat another is unethical. In some States it's even a violation....
"How much does it cost to fix your car!? Well, just how big is it?"
"Hmmm....I'm not sure, but it only has four cylanders"
thebionicman, post: 395226, member: 8136 wrote: Lowering your price to beat another is unethical. In some States it's even a violation....
I'd like to see that one enforced, because it looks to be an illegal restraint of trade.
Now, that being said, under normal cicrumstances, I wouldn't do such a thing. However, don't ask me if I would if I need some money to buy groceries.
Well stated Harold. I am about worn out with the telephone calls from people that drop a name or two or found me on Yelp, Next Door or some other on-line list. At this stage of my life, I want to help them or at least talk to them but as you said, it takes time. I must be less cynical than most because most are appreciative of me just answering the telephone. Nevertheless, I usually refer them to Brand X or Y knowing that they have been in that neighborhood or do that type of work. Around here, it is not so much the cost, it is the time that I can get it done.
One of my goals is to NEVER be the low bidder. In fact, if I know I am in a bidding situation I am automatically too busy to prepare a "bid". I have told a number of potential clients over the years that if I am the low bidder they should hire someone else, as it means I have either missed something or I will not be giving them the same quality of work as the others. I've lost some and I've won some, and I can sleep at night knowing I don't have to cut corners on someone's project.
[USER=8136]@thebionicman[/USER]
Those guys never get caught on camera or try and bend you over when anyone else is around.
It does not stop a new lowballer opening shop.
When clients tell me that it costs too much for a survey, I recommend that they check their finances because my costs are a mere drop in the bucket for what they are investing in.
Bottom line, a lot of greedy people want as much for free as people will give them.
I never bid or become a part of a bid process.
Harold you are sooo right about the "red flags".
A good number of years ago I simply quit attempting to deal with shoppers and 'moaners'. When I hear "Big Truck Surveying said they'd do it for..." I tell them to call Big Truck and have a nice day; then I hang up. I've actually become fairly short and obnoxious over the phone with some folks.
And I'm still busier than I would like.
I agree. Never lower your price just to get the job. Those are the ones that will come back to bite you. There's plenty of work, along with decent fees, for a good honest surveyor.
I have had clients negotiate my fees down based on information only they had and I didn't have access to. But very rarely.
Harold, post: 395194, member: 4544 wrote: How much.....? What does it cost.......? I need to know the price of......
Usually, that is the type of first question a telephone call's survey price shopper asks.
My standard answer to the price shoppers is "I'm afraid I have so much work already scheduled right now that I'd be kidding both of us to even think about taking your project on."
If you make a mistake and quote a figure or range that the caller declares is somehow off the scale, "I guess I have the disadvantage of having made surveys in that area over the last XX years and knowing from experience how much time similar projects have taken in the past," is the response I like.
When shopping for commodities GO TO WAL-MART. Let's see, which row are surveys on?
It's almost impossible to make any money off of shoppers.
Same here in Tasmania.
I'm content letting the person know their estimate from ABC is a good price and I couldn't do it for less.
However, and this is where people have been caught, it's the hidden costs they're not aware of that can make life miserable for them.
I always tell enquirers to know just what that price estimate gives them.
Fees for Council, Titles Office, State Revenue (tax), along with a string of other "suitably qualified reports" can seriously mount up.
I've had my fair share of "transferred" clients who'd had enough of ABC and their charges and would I do their work.
It's obvious most people are oblivious of process and approach it like the "can you fix my car and how much please?".
Slight tangent...
Client: What will be the fee?
Me: That depends on a variety of factors.
C: Well, I need a firm price.
M: Ok, there will be no fee for the time I spend at your property.
C: Wha?!
M: I will ask that you make an contribution.
C: To what?
M: To the 30 years of my life I've dedicated to my profession that has brought you and I to this moment, the education I've attained in order to protect and serve my clients, the local expertice I've gained in my practice, the insurance I invest in to further protect my clients.... etc.
C: Ok, how much.
M: You can't afford me. *click*
If the first sentence is describing what they are trying to do, or something else that makes me think they are looking for a professional to help them with their issue or project, I'm quick to ask a lot of questions to get down to the right info. "Where is the property located?" "Do you now if it's ever been surveyed before?" "Have you talked to the planning department?" etc.
If the first question is price "What does it cost to set 4 property corners" I used to say "Setting the corners is the cheap part, figuring out where they go is the expensive part", and follow up with my standard questions. Lately I've just started saying "If you are looking for the cheapest price in town, it's NOT going to be me". That gets rid of a lot of the riff raff, and saves me a lot of time too.
If the first question is "How soon can you get to it?" I generally say "I'm 3-4 weeks out at least". Often people wonder about a cancellation list or asking my crews to work overtime. I say "I'm busy working for people who called 3-4 weeks ago, and my crews are paid enough that they don't have to work OT or moonlight to feed their families". I say this even if all the crews are out back sweeping the floor in the shop, I'd rather pay them to keep the place clean than work for someone who's going to be a problem, and it's pretty rare anymore that we aren't 3-4 weeks out.
If someone wants me to cut my price, I always say "My first price is my best estimate, I won't change it unless you can give me some information that I don't already have." Those are rare. If they tell me that "Brand X says they'll do it for $xxxx" I say "OK, say hi to Joe for me when you call them back, he used to work for me & I haven't seen him in a while". I like to leave them guessing about why Joe doesn't work for me anymore 🙂
Frankly anymore I'm starting to feel the same way about construction staking. How can I give a hard money price on a job when I don't know how many times the contractor is going to call and say I've got a blue top wrong, just to get me to show up so he can ask me to do something else. How many times is Bubba on the blade going to hit my curb hubs & then put them back in with his shovel, only to have the curb crew call and tell me I've got the curb all screwed up. How many times am I going to have to call the engineer to tell him the curb slopes the wrong way? How many times is the contractor going to schedule staking only to call & cancel? How many time is my crew going to show up to stake something only to find there's a big dirt pile in the way? Not interested, I've got enough work. I only bid about 10% of the construction work in the area, and then I only send my bids to contractors I actually want to work with.
What do you charge?
My batteries.
I left land development behind about a year ago. It hasn't been my bread and butter for a lot longer. It's funny how most of the aggravation over pricing went with it. Let the folks that learned nothing from 08 to 11 deal with it.
These days it's pretty rare for me to price a job I don't already have. I'm going to ride that train as close to the sunset as it will take me..
LRDay, post: 395269, member: 571 wrote: When shopping for commodities GO TO WAL-MART. Let's see, which row are surveys on?
It's almost impossible to make any money off of shoppers.
Or McDonald's, I have an engineer that does give me a lot of work, however on some projects insists that I break down the scope to specific line item tasks with the associated fee for each item. Down to how much to set the rods in a subdivsion.
He is now asking me to bid a 50 acre subdivision assuming it is going to be 24 lots and "swath" topo 100' wide approximately 2500' and assume an extra 5 acres for outfall ditches and such.
And he wants specific line item tasks and fees. How rediculous. His firm is three engineers all with their own clientele and they provide about 60% of my work. I have trained the other two on how I work and my fees, but he's the big dog and insists on me his projects his way. And his way I have found my self setting rods on a subdivision of 80 lots I did 4 years ago that the owner waited to record for a McDonald's Menu fee I quoted 5 years ago during the great recession.
Many contracts have Federal and State Specific Guidelines to follow in their initial bid packet that insist upon a Company to include a resume portion that includes list of personnel and pay scales and independent charges for equipment and materials.
Those situations are understandable and the need to give breakdowns.
Apart from that, not going to happen.
I've been ask to separate charges for each person, vehicle and on and on before.
A company I worked for back in the 80s allowed an invoice to show a breakdown of charges for an insistent client.
Client then began to haggle over charges and claimed many not necessary and began to choose what he wanted from that list of services.
It was as though he was trying to use it like a menu in a restaurant.
Problem, it don't work that way.
My invoice explains the service, location and what is being provided (type of monuments set and tpost, marked and brushed boundary, etc).
One number for fee,
line amount for specific materials beyond what I usually provide
line amount for sales tax
Total amount due.
Field work at stated rate plus every other kind of work at a different rate. Boom. There's the total. Don't like it. Go somewhere else.
Elevation certificates are residential flat fee or commercial flat fee except Zone A-type which are the basic flat fee plus additional time required of each type. Don't like it. Go somewhere else.
Ron Lang, post: 395412, member: 6445 wrote: I have found my self setting rods on a subdivision of 80 lots I did 4 years ago that the owner waited to record for a McDonald's Menu fee I quoted 5 years ago during the great recession.
Do you have a clause in your contract; These numbers are only good for 90 days from the date it was signed?
After 90 days the numbers go up;
Holy Cow, post: 395423, member: 50 wrote: Don't like it. Go somewhere else.
If you noticed; McDonalds' numbers went up too......