There's a demographic that is underserved, judging by the phone calls I get: the regular people who are first time buyers, live in the house they bought, not flippers or developers. They want a fence or maybe an addition, or they want to end the uncertainty of not knowing where their deed lines really are. They think three grand is insane. I have slowly dropped my asking price from $1250 to "$479 plus the recording fees" which seems to be the price point where 50% of the callers don't hang up immediately. They still balk at paying a 50% deposit ($336) before I will visit the site and talk with them. I tell them that eventually someone else will pay the deposit, and I'll be close enough to stop by and meet them without burning too much of my own gas. So they keep calling. I guess we are developing a dialogue...
I tried for a while to keep the high moral ground, charge something akin to the value of the service to the customer like has been pontificated here and elsewhere over the years. That leads to taking a lot of calls that go nowhere. I worked as a dishwasher for a while. Now I'm using that vast knowledge of the PLSS to locate and cut firewood.
One thing I am considering is to start a non-profit for surveying services.
spledeus, post: 444653, member: 3579 wrote: I am certainly not charging enough on that one, but he has not returned, so perhaps he found someone to complete the project for less.
I've met a few people, over the years; that I would consider rich. The one thing that they all had in common; none of them liked to spend money and would go to great lengths to spend as little as possible.
spledeus, post: 444658, member: 3579 wrote: the lawns of billionaires are mowed by millionaires.
One of these two people is doing it wrong...
My guess is that the millionaires became that way by coordinating the efforts of the landscape crews.
Well, we just pass the offering plate, when we are done.
Got a goat, a car, and someone tried to give me a pig, and a horse!
The value of the property can be very critical to the client's opinion of what it is worth to them to have it surveyed. Those of us who live in areas of low property prices are definitely impacted by that perspective. For example, a week or two back I finished a job to pretty much only find one side of a rural tract (of course I found all of them). The fellow could have purchased an additional four acres for the cost of my survey. It was worth it to him so it was no problem. Most balk at the thought of paying one fourth that amount or the dollars per acre rate they actually paid to have the tract surveyed. It doesn't matter how many acres are involved. That just seems like too much money to them.
About 25 years ago a fellow had me split a tract he had purchased at a tax sale for the grand price of exactly $10. He had foolishly listed it immediately with a local real estate agent. He sold both pieces, paid the real estate agent and me, then had roughly the $10 he had paid for it left. Silly people do silly things.
RADAR, post: 444770, member: 413 wrote: I've met a few people, over the years; that I would consider rich. The one thing that they all had in common; none of them liked to spend money and would go to great lengths to spend as little as possible.
One of these two people is doing it wrong...
If you were to own a house on Nantucket, you'd be a millionaire too.
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C.Tompkins, post: 444620, member: 975 wrote: As a professional why are we setting a lump sum fixed rate price? No attorney sets a fixed price for their services and how would we miss the mark in pricing? I think most of us have the experience and know how to estimate a job correctly. Now I will admit that sometimes I do miss whay I thought was the tune frame, but typically we are pretty close.
My thought is to get away from the fixed price mentality and gear more towards the hourly charge. To me that makes the most sense, you have a fixed price going out in labor, rent, utilities (sometimes known amount) and supplies. It's impossible to nail down the exact amount of hours each job will take, my point is we... that means me...all to often have a fear of "overcharging" yet other professionals dont seem to be shy about their rates. Maybe that's just my perception, but that's one of the reasons for this post.
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You cannot get rich working hourly.
I do it too often.
Hourly with a 5x to 10x multiplier like an attorney would be a suitable compromise
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spledeus, post: 444912, member: 3579 wrote: You cannot get rich working hourly.
If I wanted to be rich I'd be an options trader. You can be comfortable and satisfied working hourly, but only if you're capable of being comfortable and satisfied in the first place.
Tommy Young, post: 444531, member: 703 wrote: Uh, you don't work in Tennessee.
Tommy, how long does it take you to complete one of these surveys?
If you can bang one out a day, then you'd be in line for $140k per year assuming you take off weekends and holidays. If that is sustainable for that neck of the woods, have at it.
spledeus, post: 444975, member: 3579 wrote: Tommy, how long does it take you to complete one of these surveys?
If you can bang one out a day, then you'd be in line for $140k per year assuming you take off weekends and holidays. If that is sustainable for that neck of the woods, have at it.
A typical lot survey shouldn't take over 3 hours in the field and 3 hours in the office.
WA-ID Surveyor, post: 444696, member: 6294 wrote: WOW. No offense 2867 but this statement is wrong in so many ways. Would a plumber quote you $400 to fix a pipe and then arrive on site to find that your entire plumbing system needs replaced at a cost of $5,000 and simply fix it for $400? Hell no! No one would work within a business model like that. Or, no one that wants to make a profit, that is. I realize the plumber is tradesman and we should not compare our profession to a plumber but the example is fair.
Why not create an scope of work that defines your assumptions and provide a diagram such as "this cost is based on the assumption that the N 1/4 and NE section corner exist and are found to be in the correct location. If we find something to the contrary we will stop work and address additional charges before moving forward." Using your example you would be on the hook for solving any and all issues on your own dime. that is not a good business model at all.
I find most clients appreciate a overview map with the key points you expect to find along with the points you expect to set. Pretty much everyone has seen google earth now and most homeowners can relate to aerials much better than an assessor map when defining the monuments you anticipate and need to be able to meet your contract.
In the PLSSia, it is a bit different, in my area of practice, I can get a fairly good cost frame with a little bit of research. But, I also don't try to cut my time down to the gnat's ass to get a job. On odd boundary surveys, yes I will give an initial cost with the provision that field conditions may impact those numbers and will address fee increases accordingly, but most jobs are simple enough to be lump sum and no surprises.
Tommy Young, post: 445004, member: 703 wrote: A typical lot survey shouldn't take over 3 hours in the field and 3 hours in the office.
A typical lot survey in Oregon is a couple hours of research before going to the field, a full day in the field, at least a couple hours to return and set monuments, a full day drafting a Record of Survey, a half day responding to County Surveyor redline comments. Don't forget the $400 recording fee. It's just a different game.
If $700 is the going rate, then 3 hrs/3hrs is all you can spend on it. The price to be paid for that is that sometimes you just have to cut the research and analysis short and get on with setting monuments. When $3k is the going rate the price to be paid is explaining in full every decision you make and sweating out the 0.05' conflicts.
C.Tompkins, post: 444620, member: 975 wrote: As a professional why are we setting a lump sum fixed rate price? No attorney sets a fixed price for their services and how would we miss the mark in pricing? I think most of us have the experience and know how to estimate a job correctly. Now I will admit that sometimes I do miss whay I thought was the tune frame, but typically we are pretty close.
My thought is to get away from the fixed price mentality and gear more towards the hourly charge. To me that makes the most sense, you have a fixed price going out in labor, rent, utilities (sometimes known amount) and supplies. It's impossible to nail down the exact amount of hours each job will take, my point is we... that means me...all to often have a fear of "overcharging" yet other professionals dont seem to be shy about their rates. Maybe that's just my perception, but that's one of the reasons for this post.
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IMHO you have it backwards. By charging an hourly rate you will make what the work is worth to you. By charging a fixed fee you will make what the work is worth to the client.
The trick is in knowing what the work is worth to the client. If I can't ascertain this beforehand I generally don't offer to perform the work.
Once I learned how to do this I began growing my retirement account instead of just paying the bills.
Fixed fees are what make us appear to be laborers. BTW, attorneys do set fixed fees for their services.
I can see general members of the public reading this thread and passing it along to their legislators in those 23 states that are currently under Governor Executive Orders to suspend all regulation efforts until each licensing board can justify their existence and why the state should not just eliminate the licensing requirements.
C.Tompkins, post: 444620, member: 975 wrote: My thought is to get away from the fixed price mentality and gear more towards the hourly charge.
Jim in AZ, post: 445226, member: 249 wrote: IMHO you have it backwards.
Hourly rates give the provider an incentive to draw the job out - to milk it. How can that be more professional? Fixed fee incentivises the professional to complete the work more efficiently. Fixed fees that are too low - that's a problem.
C.Tompkins, post: 444620, member: 975 wrote: As a professional why are we setting a lump sum fixed rate price?
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The point of using fixed fees is to get WAY more than you would hourly. Not applicable to every job, but when appropriate, can work out well. Especially in good economic times, and can be handy when clients are on tight timeframes and you have the ability to perform. Kinda like gambling but you're the house, know the odds and set the price of poker. And no Kent, it's not ripping people off, it's getting paid for the value of service you're providing. What is something worth? It's worth what someone will pay for it.
I have found that when most people ask for a fixed fee what they are thinking of is Hourly - Not to Exceed and vice versa. The experience being the when a NTE price is given hours will be billed until the NTE is reached.
Ric Moore, post: 445240, member: 731 wrote: I can see general members of the public reading this thread and passing it along to their legislators in those 23 states that are currently under Governor Executive Orders to suspend all regulation efforts until each licensing board can justify their existence and why the state should not just eliminate the licensing requirements.
Is CA one of them?
Mark Mayer, post: 445244, member: 424 wrote: Hourly rates give the provider an incentive to draw the job out - to milk it. How can that be more professional?
That's not an intrinsic problem with hourly fees, rather a lack of character with those charging them. The "professional" who will milk an hourly job to make more money will cut corners on a fixed fee job for the same reason.
roger_LS, post: 445246, member: 11550 wrote: The point of using fixed fees is to get WAY more than you would hourly. Not applicable to every job, but when appropriate, can work out well. Especially in good economic times, and can be handy when clients are on tight timeframes and you have the ability to perform. Kinda like gambling but you're the house, know the odds and set the price of poker. And no Kent, it's not ripping people off, it's getting paid for the value of service you're providing. What is something worth? It's worth what someone will pay for it.
Yes.
Value based fee structure.
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