Related to the "Trouble finding help " post

I agree. Minimum wage in some states is approaching that.?ÿ?ÿ

And in some areas prep cooks and kitchen help are making more.?ÿ Not necessarily just in the big towns either.?ÿ?ÿ

I keep saying it, I love surveying, but if I had a do over, I'd be a plumber or electrician instead.?ÿ

You don't hear of people calling up the electrician who did some wiring for the prior owner expecting them to fix anything for free.?ÿ

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Wages paid tie to income from completed work.?ÿ If the work is being charged out at silly low rates then it follows the workers will be getting paid at silly low rates.?ÿ Sure there are owners who feel they are the only ones deserving of making real money, but, many of those go out of business eventually.

You get what you pay for!

I wrote an opinion piece for our associations newsletter regarding this, as well as the respect that "technicians" deserve and is sorely lacking in the profession. I have attached for anyone interested.

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@paul-d

First, I must say you provided a very well-written and thought out message.?ÿ Let's hope it has some positive effects.

Second, thank you for providing the entire issue.?ÿ I really enjoy getting a chance to see how things are done in different places while we all try to move forward doing very similar things.?ÿ The stories were quite interesting.

Around here youƒ??re looking at fast food joints (Taco Bell included) offering $12-14/hr. So thatƒ??s a minimum jumping off point. I reckon the sell is what itƒ??s always been anyways- you have to like the job. Iƒ??ve told every greenhorn Iƒ??ve employed: there are plenty of gigs where you can mail it in and get by for a while. This isnƒ??t one of them. If you donƒ??t like the work, might as well own it and go on to something else, no feelings hurt.

strikes me that ƒ??naturalƒ? surveyors are both pretty easy to spot early and also realize it themselves. Conversely the ones whoƒ??ve been ƒ??mehƒ? at best wash out pretty quick. The cost of business doesnƒ??t suffer much as a consequence.

@paul-d

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Great article!

Fixed. Another aspect of the higher pay scale argument would be that offering more money really only attracts people who are looking for more money.

I agree with the observation that you have to like the survey job to be a surveyor. No use in getting out in all sorts of weather and environment if you don't like the job. Or there is another 9-5 job where you can spend it indoors with air conditioning offering the same pay.

You get to know the ones that will last long in this type of job within the 1st week if not days. I would guess it's like the coal miners or high rise construction workers. It's in their blood. And by blood I don't mean you can transfuse someone's else blood into their veins.

@paul-d Very good article.

I particularly liked?ÿ "..confidence in their ability to perform as professionals, while not being a licensed professional, is key to responsibly being in responsible charge."

A few comments:

• entry level starting wage is less of an issue than what the wage might be after 3, 6, 12 months and so on. At true entry level, some might argue that the employee should be paying the employer for the training! Indeed, if you called your business a school of surveying, and your employees "interns", that is exactly what they would be doing!
• Any attempt to relate entry level wages and "living wage" is nonsense. No one should be trying to live on entry level wages. After a year or two of experience, one might support themselves. I'd think a person would have to be 4 or 5 years into a career before they think of supporting a family. Of course that won't stop people from trying it. But that is not the professions fault.?ÿ
• The fact that wage growth has stalled in our profession is not news. It's happening in almost all "mature" lines of work. It was a big issue in the 2016 election.
• Wages in dollar terms are one thing, the cost of benefits, particularly medical, has increased greatly. So when you compare 1994 entry level with 2020 be sure you are comparing the whole package.?ÿ
• I'm in agreement that wages and benefits must rise to attract people. There is a demand. If sustained, inevitably there will be upward pressure on wages. If sustained.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
• in baseball they draft high schoolers and pay them $20k a year to live and work in places far away from their homes. After maybe 5 years, if they are exceptionally good, they may rise to Triple A and $50k/year. A large majority never make it that far, let alone the majors and the big money. But that big money carrot keeps plenty of people willing to go through the struggle. Similar stories in other sports and in the entertainment industry. My point being that if you want to encourage the?ÿ entry level, there needs to be a carrot for those that stick it out and get to the top as much as, an more than, there needs to be sugar at the bottom?ÿ

The benefit package can make or break the circumstances, especially if the medical insurance is fully paid for the family and is a good plan.?ÿ For certain families that can be worth more in real dollars than the wages.

Once upon I time I worked for a company where our medical insurance was fully paid by the company and would be a family plan if the employee had a family or a single plan so long as the employee was single.?ÿ My youngest daughter was born during the time I was employed by them.?ÿ My total out of pocket for everything from the wife's first meeting with the doctor through the entire pregnancy, delivery and hospital stay was something like $80.?ÿ I will admit I was one of the higher paid employees but the lowest paid employee out of 1400 had the same level of insurance as a benefit.

@paul-d

great article. very much like the idea of recognizing non-licensed folks for their contribution.

One thing I have found to be unfortunate (or disgusting depending on your point of view) is that some continuing education providers charge far more to non-members than members, yet deny the paraprofessionals/technicians the ability to become members.?ÿ Thus, those who are seeking the most information/education sometimes pay as much as double the standard fee while earning wages significantly inferior to those who get the price break.?ÿ Then the providers wonder why newly-licensed surveyors may turn their back on the organization that has ignored them for so long.

There is a desperate need for "technicians" in the field with no clear cut answer. I tend to lean towards the low starting wages being the main culprit considering what these "technicians" need to learn and have as base capabilities. Example below;

My wife manages a fast food restaurant and a new cook who is only expected to follow protocols on a sign printed out in front of them and listen for food orders starts $12-14 with insurance within a year. Not a very technical job. If the employees decides to be proactive and do online course for the company they could move up to a shift manager in 6-12 months and pay goes up to $32-36K, and if really aggressive move into an assistant manage position within a year at $38-42K (with bonuses). Very few actually do move up, whether it is poor education to begin with or lower work habits I am unsure.

Now a greenhorn technician is starting around the same pay range and guess what.....We are pulling from the same labor pool as my wife does. That said, we expect them to deal with the environment, know how to use a computer, and have some drive to go the extra yard to find irons or set those last 2 stakes after 5pm. We then expect them to learn a technical profession (can't really place a sign in front of them can we) that might take 2-3 years to truly learn and move beyond just being a button pusher, yet by then they are lucky to be making $18/hr while the cook is now a store manager making $50-60K with bonuses.

I hate to say it, but the thought that new employees are greenhorns and so deserve lower pay is the problem. By labeling new employees as such, we are killing the profession by attracting new staff from a less qualified and educated employee pool. We then create a revolving door of unskilled technicians that only see surveying as a job and not something to love. Ask yourself, how many technicians have come through your doors with 3-5 years experience lately that couldn't survey themselves out of bag? They look great on payroll sheets, but you end up with something less than ideal doing the work.

I just switched companies and this would be my staff breakdown and recommendation;

Old Company ($2.3M Rev. Annual);

6 field crews (one PC with a future, 5 PC's at top of the ladder and button pushers, and 4 technicians which will never be anything else)

4-Office technicians-2 might be licensed (both with surveying degrees), 2 drafters (one is 18 with 3 years experience due to need for some one to draft)

2-PLS's who are going bald and need high blood pressure med's due to fixing issues non stop

(company needs 1-2 more PLS's, 2 more office technicians, 2-4 field technicians minimum with the capability to move up)

New Company (about same revenue maybe a little more)

6 Field crews-Six PC's, 2 technicians

3-Office technicians- One sitting for PLS and other 2 have some skills, but limited training due to poor previous training.

3-PLS's-Stressed out due to lack of workers

(This company needs 2-3 more office technicians and possible 6 field technician helpers)

Both companies have the same exact problem....A need for ready trained (or truly trainable) and skilled employees (we will say 15 between the 2) but they don't exist. Why...because the profession doesn't do enough to entice them to join and stay because we are pulling from an employee pool that that doesn't relate to our needs to start with.

As to the benefit argument.....Most people making $14/hr qualify for state and federal insurance which is flat out better and cheaper than what an employer can offer. So when pulling from the $14/hr labor pool, for most better benefits doesn't mean a thing.

Sorry about the long post.

@terminus-nc

I started at 43yo ( to be honest i was doing geophysics for 5+ years and main frame computers before that) and was(still am) enticed and interested in climbing the responsible work ladder too.

Problem exists in the mind set of the people in the firms.?ÿ I had no encouragement, and dismissive responses from the owner PLSs on my questions about becoming licensed( already had one college degree and a GIS certificate at this point) and when they said they weren't going to advance anyone to PC in the coming year I bailed.?ÿ Why stay??ÿ After pounding more than 100 boxes of 60D nails and a thousand rebar, setting corners and caps, surveying along the live edge of high rise construction sites, ALTAS, even esoteric boundary work for the Federal government, I expected more from my employer than "we don't need any more field chiefs..."

They didn't want future competition, and their guarantee was built into their approach of non advancement.

Stagnation is a culprit I fear in lots of places, and fear of change, etc.?ÿ

I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but have been motivated by mid life attainment and I also read David Goggins book?ÿ "Can't Hurt Me", and that's a whole other topic of discussion.

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It's really encouraging that this typeof discussion is starting to occur because the profession needs a reboot, a real honest to God Revival of why it's a great career for those willing to work, use their brains and want to leave behind some legacy. Not in just spewing out crappy poorly calculated subdivisions and corner monuments, but by creating new surveyors to assist with and to protect the public trust regarding land ownership and direct understanding of boundaries etc..?ÿ Now I'm rambling. I'm old enough to be expected to do so now too.....?ÿ 😉

Posted by: @jph

I agree. Minimum wage in some states is approaching that.?ÿ?ÿ

And in some areas prep cooks and kitchen help are making more.?ÿ Not necessarily just in the big towns either.?ÿ?ÿ

I keep saying it, I love surveying, but if I had a do over, I'd be a plumber or electrician instead.?ÿ

You don't hear of people calling up the electrician who did some wiring for the prior owner expecting them to fix anything for free.?ÿ

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Plumbers and elections are in a very highly paid trade. It's a great way to make a living for those with no interest in a four year degree; however, a licensed land surveyor making less than a plumber or a electrician has made choices the lead to that situation. The ability to make those choices, to choose to work on your own, and live in a rural area with low land values, and little demand, in a state with low barriers to entry, is a feature of our profession.?ÿ

Because the barrier to entry in many states is much lower than other professions, we attract many people that have constraints, other then professional ones,?ÿ that keep them from realizing the financial benifits of the profession.?ÿ

In some areas the low entrance qualifications and the captive work force conspire to keep prices and quality low. Low profits and the ability to replace technicians with technology make it hard to pay technician living wages in these areas. The result is often bottom of the barrel employees, further degrading quality and the ability to raise prices.?ÿ

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@jitterboogie

you hit the nail on the head with why I left my last firm & started out on my own (as well as a few other part time gigs). Granted thereƒ??s nothing terribly wrong with how they approached my situation as I was a licensed PE & contractor at 30yrs old while also studying to get my PLS. They had mentioned being a partner several times if I got the 3rd license which I now have no thanks to them short of the experience aspect maybe. But theyƒ??d never lay out the road to partnership in stone or how to go about it - nor even come clean about the companyƒ??s financial position or what they might value it at. But after almost 7 hard years & when things get pretty ƒ??stagnantƒ? in multiple ways such their business/clients, day to day operations still relying upon older surveying & drafting methods from the 80ƒ??s/90ƒ??s due to distrust in technology, lack of new employee retention due to lower pay & quirky policies plus seasoned employees retiring early because theyƒ??re frustrated with lack of ownersƒ?? appreciation, it starts to make you wonder why should I strive harder here for somebody else who doesnƒ??t appreciate it & has effectively capped your pay & even told you that ƒ??youƒ??ll really only ever be worth X to us?ƒ?

So granted I really do miss certain aspects like my coworkers & the role I played (basically leading the land development side on probably a half dozen or more projects a year) but I realize now that an owner will only value an employee but so much. And rightfully so as they have to make the numbers work for the business & themselves - itƒ??s not a charity. So you as the employee must decide ƒ??is this place & their demands worth the hassle?ƒ? But with a little more verbal appreciation coupled with the idea of ƒ??hey you really busted your butt for us so weƒ??ll reward you wellƒ? then Iƒ??d probably still be there. The actions or even lack of actions by owners speaks volumes to employees. My fatherƒ??s self-employed; watching him & his employeeƒ??s relationships has always been interesting but I have never heard a one of them say they left him because they didnƒ??t respect his work ethic or policies. If you as a business owner work hard, give your help pay that reflects the level of responsibilities associated with it as well as hold them accountable to those tasks but treat them well/with respect then theyƒ??ll in turn respect & appreciate you

@aliquot

Plumbers and elections...............

How did I miss that the first time I looked?

That's a classic!