I have a lady that called and asked for the second sheet of an alta that I did a few years ago. She says the client is re-financing, and they have sheet 1 of my 2 sheet survey, and she wants sheet 2. What would you guys do? TIA, JT
Is her client the same person you did the ALTA for? If they are not the same person then I would give her a price to update the ALTA.
Is her client your original client?
> I have a lady that called and asked for the second sheet of an alta that I did a few years ago. She says the client is re-financing, and they have sheet 1 of my 2 sheet survey, and she wants sheet 2. What would you guys do? TIA, JT
In a word. No.
Speaking in a general sense here .... We are the professionals whose first and most important job is to "protect the public".
Are we protecting the public if we give them data that we know is potentially no longer applicable to their need? If you go to the emergency room with what appears to be a broken arm would the doctor accept copies of x-rays of the arm that are several years old? Of course not. The need, whether the client knows it or not, is for current information.
Larry P
That's an easy one. NO. It's not her survey.
I would add a prominent note (large text size) saying the survey was performed in XXXX and may not reflect current conditions on the site, then I'd give her a copy. In my experience that is called marketing and will probably bring you an update request.
Apparently I'm alone on this, and that's okay.
> I would add a prominent note (large text size) saying the survey was performed in XXXX and may not reflect current conditions on the site, then I'd give her a copy. In my experience that is called marketing and will probably bring you an update request.
>
> Apparently I'm alone on this, and that's okay.
You're not alone, Bruce. I would suggest that the note start in large words, "COURTESY COPY" followed by your suggested note. Stamps can easily be added to any pdf file copy.
JBS
> I have a lady that called and asked for the second sheet of an alta that I did a few years ago. She says the client is re-financing, and they have sheet 1 of my 2 sheet survey, and she wants sheet 2. What would you guys do? TIA, JT
Give her the copy with a big red stamp across it, saying courtesy copy, may not reflect current conditions, and do not stamp or sign, i would also give her a copy of sheet one with the same information on it in red
If my client calls, they can have the survey . If anyone else calls, its a no. I will offer to re-certify the survey, for x amount of dollars, showing any new conditions . I usually get another survey out of it.
I welcome those calls.
Only for the original client who must actually make the request. And if it's more than a few months old I would not sign it. The other suggestions about a courtesy copy are good as well.
No, you are not alone. I'd likely make the notations as suggested and ask for a modest fee for my time, ink, paper, etc. Couple hundred $$ or so. Then the update will be charged accordingly if they want it, which is likely the case.
This is a classic case of why surveys should be recorded, then we don't have to screen our calls for stuff like this. They can go to the county and get their own copy.
> This is a classic case of why surveys should be recorded, then we don't have to screen our calls for stuff like this. They can go to the county and get their own copy.
[sarcasm]Also a classic case why they should not be recorded. Give it a few years and we will all be out of business.[/sarcasm]
> > This is a classic case of why surveys should be recorded, then we don't have to screen our calls for stuff like this. They can go to the county and get their own copy.
>
> [sarcasm]Also a classic case why they should not be recorded. Give it a few years and we will all be out of business.[/sarcasm]
Ok Vern, I'll bite on this one for a few moments, and I do like the sarcasm aspect. Good one... 😉
I've been in this profession almost longer than I'm alive. I love it. I've set literally thousands of property corners, all of which bear my cap and PLS number. Maybe a shovel or two, or a hungry mouse, or some frost movement, or even a just plain ole dumb arse, decided they didn't like it there.
I for the life of me will never understand why any surveyor would not want his/her legacy on the public record. Just record the survey and all these problems go away. So what if they want a copy of something old. Just ask questions, print the map, and hand them the bill.
The adjoiner may call and want a survey done. Maybe the guy in the back yard. Maybe he calls his sister who is looking for a surveyor. Maybe the general contractor wants a pretty top shelf surveyor to take the liability for his $3 mil project.
It's all about referrals and I think that was Bruce's point. Please correct me if I'm off base.
I'm just in the "record your survey" crowd, along with the 4 yr degree crowd. Many disagree and that's ok. It just kind of reminds me of that line from Animal House - "you're on double top secret probation".
I want my footsteps followed and I want them to know why I did what I did.
$0.02
Not necessarily a loss of business
Recording your surveys doesn't mean you will lose business. If someone asks me about doing a survey I search the records and if I find a recorded survey on or near the site, I refer them to that surveyor. Assuming they aren't Brand X, of course.
NO
The title company has already given the clients a contingency plan for less money than a new survey costs and they will not ask for a new survey most of the time.
They usually ask for a copy because they know one exists and they have not been provided one for their own records. They can always request a copy of the one they have been shown or told about from that person.
Most of the time they never go with the last survey company for a new Alta survey. New people involved usually go with their own survey company of choice.
As many copies of a job that I give out on an Alta survey, there are plenty lying around in somebody's file already.
Third parties are not entitled to a copy, unless one of the originals sent to the client was provided for them.
I keep a hard copy in my file and after updating software and moving out outdated equipment, I do not have any way to reproduce an original from many of my files.
My bottom line is that if they want to continue to use a document, get it recorded in public records for all to use forever, for whatever purpose they can and as long as they can, legally.
0.02
Not necessarily a loss of business
:good:
The thought process that leads one to think that recordation of surveys will reduce the need for them is flawed...
I would ask her for the current Title Commitment that cross references the current survey. The Commitment and the Survey are integral parts of each other - you have to have both to have the complete package...
Not necessarily a loss of business
Case in point Jim, et al.
Personally and professionally, I'm not hiding one thing. This is what I did, this is why I did it, thank you for the check. Questions, call me. And yes I have a couple hiccups out there I wish I would have not made that decision on.
Next please. Thus there is no loss of business and I see it as a positive boost, if for no other reason than one of our creedo's to "protect the public".
Let the title companies make sellers sign off. Let the low ballers stake the fence line as they see fits. Let the realtor tell the buyer "here are your corners". But at the end of any day that ends in a Y, they will need a real live true life surveyor to tell them where that bear does his thing. $$$
Stamping or writing "courtesy copy" on it alone is not enough. You need them to sign a document acknowledging it is out of date, and you are not renewing a contract with them, and there are risks involved in relying on outdated documents. Your fee (if any) needs to state that it's only for archive search and copying. Otherwise, if they do use it to their detriment, and it causes them damages, they will sue you for providing it to them. Nice to be nice, but it's a litigious world out there.
If it's on file or record then they have no case against you for changed circumstances, and no case if statute for contract and/or negligence has run. Not that it will stop them from trying.
Being on file makes it much easier for the public to improperly rely on older work. Having come to you, don't be part of the problem, educate them as to their risks.
It's about informed risk taking, and duty of professionals. One can rely on a filed deed without searching the title, but you won't see an attorney handing out filed deeds from the past to clients interested in using them for a closing, without some sort of form they are required to sign acknowledging they refused the services of the attorney.