I know its been said before...

That post reminds me of the George Carlin commment:

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" (of course he didn't use the words "idiot" or "maniac", but he would have probably gotten booted from this web page)

Sorry, I know that low-ballers can just destroy good companies trying to make a living. The joke wasn't meant to imply that your frustration isn't justified. I just remembered the joke.

Tom
(who likes fat tire beer)

Free Enterprise is great. It allows for those who over value their worth and those who undervalue it to starve out, the remainder will win some and loose some, should balance out if the government stays out of the mix.
jud

It's always tough when you give it your best sharpened pencil price, only to get beat by 50%. 5 or 10%, ok. But halfzies is really annoying. Especially when you know full well they'll be padding the fee and will end up where they should have started. You can't even wish they'd screw it up, because that's bad for the profession (ok, you can wish in secret, but don't say anything).

Like us all...just roll with it as best ya' can and get 'em next time.

Then there are the out of towners.... an entirely different issue.

I know your pain. I recently priced what would have been a good job that would have allowed me to bring back some of my help. The job was local to me and I'm familiar with the area (have run one side in the past). My proposal was for $6400 and that was shaving it down tight. The "winner" is coming from 50+ miles away and priced it at $4400! I wonder if he realizes how much money he's leaving on the table... He won't make enough on that job to buy lunch for his crew. The property is heavily wooded and the bulk of it hasn't been surveyed in forever. I've patiently waited for these guys to starve themselves out but it doesn't seem to be happening. Personally, if it's going to COST me to work or at best, break even, I'd just as soon stay home with the wife and enjoy some time together.

> Just jumped on here from RPLS and extremely frustrated...sorry to have this as my first post.
>
> Tom

Welcome Tom.

I've lost a few clients to lowballers and out of towners, I think everyone has. It is just a part of business.

When your client only cares about cost, that is what happens. They are usually the clients that do not care if your business is open tomorrow or if the low baller is open tomorrow either. They are usually getting something off the top end also.

10days ago I had a call concerning an ex client that was involved in a sell to a faithful client that always wants me to do his surveys. The calls and exchanges were cautiously worded, but the point was very clear. The ex client has decided that only a certain amount was going to be spent for a survey or they would sign whatever disclaimer or exclusion that were necessary for the sale to go forward.

The faithful client was adamant about wanting me to do the survey.

I am glad that there is plenty to keep me busy and not have to put up with their pissing match tactics. They expected to make a survey of 175ac with a highway passing thru and one boundary being the center of a grown over creek and finish by the 14th of this month.

The ex client budget number was between $1200 and $1800 and has a surveyor willing to do a fenceline survey to satisfy his requirements for a survey.

As far as I know they are still battling wits.

Education

We need to educate the client on the value of our service and the lack thereof form the low bidder.

It's the people that accept these low-ball bids, then later regret it when the surveyor hits them up with a change order. Or better yet, does such a crappy job, that they need to hire somebody else to come in and fix it PLUS finish the job. We've all heard that story too......

Welcome to the board, may 2012 bring brighter days....

Dugger

The last project that I lost like that had 5 bidders. One was way over the pack, somewhere around $50k, three of us were within $500 or so of each other at $38k. The winning bidder was at $9k.

These guys just harm the profession. I get calls all the time by people who say they've gotten quotes for $300 for a 1 acre survey with a site plan then they think I'm trying to rip them off when I give my price. As long as realize the other guy is only going to put in a couple hours of time.

I don't bid work myself per se. However, when a prospective client contacts me about doing a project, or when I respond to a RFQ/RFP, I always make sure the client understands the scope and breadth of work required by the surveyor. Owners often don't understand what it takes.

My goal with this is to ensure that owner understands what the product is that he needs from the surveyor, what level of effort it will take by whomever is selected to perform the job expected, and most important, what the ramifications are of performance at less than the required scope or level of proficiency required.

As such, the owner then understands his needs better on terms of effort and competence instead of just equating it to dollars. He then becomes educated that a low price may be reflective of a product that either creates liability or doesn't meet his expectations.

If you did not have that level of conversation with the owner during the proposal process, then give the owner a call after selection to make sure he was talking apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

If you have an individual who "subs out crews and drafters" in other words he retains them as independent contractors so he doesnt have to pay payroll taxes, insurances, unemployment insurance etc, then he is in violation of Fed and most State labor laws. If the service is something you would normally provide then you can not hire a person as an independent contractor to do the same work. If you are the LS in charge and you dictate how they will do the work, then they are not independent contractors. If you are an LS you have to be responsible for the work and if you are not controlling how the work is done then you are in violation of your professional license. In my review of the Independent contractor requirements, I do not see how a professional can hire independent contractors to do the work they are responsible for. Just sayin'

NYLS--good observation.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread but I would like to hear more discussion on hiring independent contractors.

What NYLS said makes perfect since, I have never thought about it or looked it up in the MS rules.

NYLS--good observation.

> I'm not trying to hijack this thread but I would like to hear more discussion on hiring independent contractors.
>
> What NYLS said makes perfect since, I have never thought about it or looked it up in the MS rules.

What he said is exactly true. The minute "supervision" enters the scope, they cannot be 1099 contractors. Lots of other criteria too: scheduling of work, liability, services to competing firms,

Here is the IRS version of the definition. Lots of people push the envelope, both business's and the "contractor" alike. Slippery slope IMO, even the $600 limit is.

If that lowballer is doing that, one call from a concerned competitor would make life real miserable for Mr LowBall, and his so called 1099 people. Not just all the retroactive state & fed taxes for all, but retro work comp, unemployment, penalties & interest, major red flagged. No thanks.

As I understand it, Obummercare has some hidden BS to make it all even worse for both business and contractors alike. Don't know if its 2012, 13, or 14.

Good cause to be a solo and just do everything yourself, and then hire a legitimate company to do other stuff. Or just hire people and deal with all that. Or just work for somebody and let them deal with it.

(sorry, no hijack but he asked)

NYLS--good observation.

Under federal regulations, the only way a surveyor can hire a sub-contractor is if that sub-contractor signed and sealed the surveys...period!

Once you certify that this survey was prepared under 'your" direction and direct supervision the sub-contract issue is a mute point.

There is no grey/gray area here.

This is an interesting point...there are a lot of surveyors around the area who sub out field work. There are a good number of people around who work full time as subs to these guys. I also know a couple of surveyors who sub their drafting work out to India (we've all gotten those calls...).

I will look into this further...

I did explain very clearly to the client what our scope was going to be...this is a big project and a good base map is going to be key. The one partner said he wanted to go with me because he has seen my work but he is only a minority partner in the project and was out voted. He felt our price was good.

I've cooled off a bit from this afternoon...so on to the next bid...I'll be waiting for the call to come fix some problem out there...

Tom

Welcome

Jump right in. The water's just right. Seriously, help this to be the best forum it can be.

Surveying is being undercut by exactly these work arrangements. Every other industry has been using contract labor for years without any qualms about direct supervision. It makes things more efficient.

There is at least one state where the definition of direct supervision requires a contract relationship; mentoring does not qualify. However, it does not specify the nature of the contract, and allows experience as either employee or contract crew.

Have any of you actually consulted with a labor attorney about any of this?

The one I consult spends a lot of time on both sides of direct supervision cases.
Mostly about electricians' licenses. Their definition of direct supervision means that the licensed electrician was actually on the same JOB SITE as the supervisee, AT THE SAME TIME. And frequently enough, someone will cook the timecards and job site records to get a few more journeymen licensed. Sometimes their board will suspend a guy's license for apparent timecard/supervision fraud, now he has to defend his innocence. On the opposite side, sometimes a journeyman is forced to get legal help because a supervisor will refuse to vouch for hours actually worked -- "You scratched up my new truck so I ain't signin!" Nurses, on the other hand, are receiving direct supervision if the Doctor will return their phone call when it is convenient. Lots of contract nurses, too, gaining hours towards their next credential. There are dozens of trades/professions somewhere in between. And many of those trades/professions use contract "employees".

Most of the complaints about the illegality of contract crews are just myth, business ignorance that keeps our profession from adapting. Adapt or die.

That's true...its not like I am in the field with my crew, I review their work as supervision. If the person is someone I trust. does is really matter if they are an actual employee of mine or if they work for a few different guys?

Tom

It just interest me... I worked for a guy that sub contracted his crews; if I remember correctly his party chief (sub) charged by the day or half day. I really think that it compromised his quality of work. He SEEMED that he would base decisions about jobs on a half/whole day basis. For instance - if we really needed to tie down one monument to show on a plat, he wouldn't because that monument would cost him $___. At the same time it kinda felt like the sub (party chief) had a little power over him; for instance- they return to the office - did you tie these two monumnets, "no sir, we didn't think you would need it and it was late'... It really has a more to do with management I guess.

That can happen anytime that someone stops listening to instructions and caring about the job that they have.

I will hire a few temporary helpers to fill in when I get overwhelmed with field work. They use my equipment and sometimes their truck if mine are out somewhere else. They are temporary because they do not follow instructions very well and they get small stuff. If they followed and did not tend to stray from procedure, I would keep them full time.