Who doe this?

Who does this?

I feel your pain. There would not seem to be a sound reason for ignoring the monument already in existence. Besides, who's to say one of the quarter corner monuments hadn't moved for some odd reason creating this bizarre situation to even occur mathematically.

OH... OH... OH... Don't even get me started down this road. I HATE those clowns. I can't count all the hours I've wasted chasing section corners behind these IDIOTS who can't just make one stinkin little note about missing a monument by less than a foot in their field book and get on with life! If they feel so strongly about it they should just move the darn thing! But NO they have to set another and CREATE DOUBT where none existed!:pissed:

STOP.
TAKE A DEEP BREATH.
HOLD IT.
LET IT OUT.
THINK ABOUT PUPPIES.
Okay, I think I caught it in time. Sorry y'all had to see that.:-$

I have a theory..

..about this.

"Back in the day" when we chained, and even when we used the early edm, there was still a minor "haze" of doubt in a traverse. Not much of a "cloud", but more of a "haze".

By the time we had traversed into, and back out again, from a center of section, there was always a little error in the closure. Maybe a few tenths, maybe more if the terrain was rough. I was never really that sure about my "exact" location. If I came within 0.6' of an existing pin, hell, it was good.

That was back when a tape & transit traverse might close 1:10,000 if you were lucky.

Nowadays with the equipment we use, our observed angles, distances and derived locations are so repeatable that some surveyors have developed a "bullet-proof" mentality about their derived locations. The thought that "you can always be wrong" never enters their minds.

In a time when the equipment we use is so wonderful, we need to cling more dearly to the basic concept of honoring existing monumentation. Instead, I get the feeling that some of us think we're actually out there checking it, or giving it a grade instead of honoring it.

A poor excuse for professionalism and knowledge of what we're really suppose to be doing.

happens here all the time.

there are 2 possibilities: surveyor B did not see the original monument, or surveyor B heard somewhere that the center 1/4 can only go at the intersection of straight lines.

Too bad - the first one is the original legal center - the second one is a point of confusion - representing someone's node.

Property corners do not lie in the head of some future surveyor.

ww co pls

I have a theory..

:good:

Or, you go out and search for that center 1/4 and find nothing. You search and search. You search so much that you know every little rock and dead beetle in the area. Your search is based off of all of the research and review of various plats you have acquired. You then start making calls to the surveyors of the plats you have and get a bunch of lip service from them. You do more field work because you know that you need to set that center 1/4. A few days later after you have evaluated all of your evidence and are ready to reset that 1/4 corner, you arrive to the point of planting it and find a brand new shinny cap set by the retired surveyor who should have set it in the first place many years ago since the last time you were out there! Like magic, it's there. It has happened to me. I even dug down along the rebar and it was not rusted or weathered at all.

SD

I'd call him and ask him, nicely.

Then, depending on the answer, I'd call him a moron.

The pin cushion is egocentrism but the contractor part brings up a recent question I have run into.
Do you know in Alaska how the board considers contractors replacing surveying corners on road projects? A local construction company recently decided that instead of hiring a Licensed Land Surveyor to help with construction they would purchase a GPS unit and do it in house. They have passed their grade hop off as a surveyor and are tying corners pre construction and then resetting them post construction. The local city, borough and even DOT are buying the work and I am wondering how this is ok.
This is not about slope staking or layout or grade checking, this is about property corners, so all of the construction surveyors please don’t jump in and start ranting about unqualified Land Surveyors, etc., etc.

Construction destruction

It's OK Bear Bait. I totally agree with you.
I was asked once to re-set a property corner. After I explained the facts I've not been asked again.
Sure, I'm more qualified than most to re-set one but I'm not licensed and have enough respect for my profession not to cross that line.

In this part of the world (Florida) almost all contract documents call for "re-set all property corners, benchmarks and control points disturbed during construction by Registered Land Surveyor". They never do because no agency is enforcing it. The contractor isn't gonna pay for it and reduce his profit. The building inspector could not care less. Most plans don't even include a copy of the survey. No one I've talked to even knows who is responsible for enforcing it. Unless the client or an adjoiner brings it up, it never happened.

Construction destruction

I appreciate your respect for the profession, but to me it used to be always spelled out pretty clearly. It used to be that if you wanted to practice Land Surveying (Having to do with property corners) than you should be deemed qualified, licensed and regulated. I along with thousands of Land Surveyors went through a lot of work and took great pride in the fact that we put in the time and effort to understand all that is involved to adequately do the profession. If its ok to set property corners as an unlicensed person than maybe it’s time that licensing go by the wayside and the business be treated like contracting or a skill instead of a professional service. Why go through the trouble and liability if getting a license if it doesn’t apply to the current world? Why should we be required to have a license if it’s in the minds of most that licensing is just to restrict the activity to a select privileged few?

By the way I think the Gainesville area is one of the greatest places on earth!

All contracts with AK DOT/PF require not only a PLS to be in responsible charge, but on the field crew at all times. I would imagine that they are in violation of their contract. In addition, the AK board is quite clear about construction stakers. An un-licensed surveyor can perform construction staking IF they are employed by the company performing the construction. Any locating or re-setting of survey monumentation would NOT be considered construction staking. I would start with the DOT PM then follow up with the board if you get no satisfaction.

The AK statute governing when a Record of Survey is to be recorded would apply here. The language reads something like "...any monument set" (paraphrasing), requires the ROS.
The professional thing to do would be to call up that surveyor and ask him to record his Plat.
If he doesn't, then it's up to you if you want to turn him into the board.

Construction destruction

I had one job that required well boxes be set to protect the section corners in the road.
They made sure we did it.

Other than that, I agree, no one enforces it.

The rules on the recording of Record of Survey plats getting recorded is, uh-hum, loosely enforced. At least around here. Aliquot part lots are considered technically already existing surveyed parcels due to the fact that the section was surveyed in 1915. At least for conveyance purposes.

As it turns out the section corner that I found to be out by five feet was also set by the same surveyor who set the center 1/4 corner 0.61' from the one set in 1982. He chose to ignore all of the supporting evidence, i.e., subdivision corners located off of the original position, and chose to double proportion instead. Supposedly DOT's contractors referenced the position and reset the monument in good faith and I have their RP information.

Now I may have some major issues with grade hops replacing property corners on construction projects. They need to be under the direct supervision of an LS. What I really have an issue with is an LS with more than 30+ years of experience choosing to ignore all of the work done in good faith by his predecessors using the best equipment and techniques of the time and placing his corners on his version of the 'correct' location. Not only is it egocentric, but flies in the face of everything I've been taught to uphold as sacred. That is the part that really troubles me. Being as I have a good relationship with this individual, rather than calling him a moron, I will bring up the subject with him in a casual fashion using my best Columbo routine. 'I'm confused, please help me to understand why you did what you did'. For all I know there may be a good explanation, but I doubt it.

Willy,
I agree that the Record of Survey Statute is rarely enforced (a real shame),but it is up to us to call other surveyors on it.

AS Sec. 34.65.030. Records of survey . After making a survey in conformity with the practice and definition of land surveying, a land surveyor shall file with the district recorder a record of survey within 90 days if the survey discloses
(1) material evidence or physical change that in whole or in part does not appear on a plat of record previously filed in the office of the district recorder or in the records of the Bureau of Land Management;
(2) a material discrepancy with a plat of record previously filed in the office of the district recorder or in the records of the Bureau of Land Management; or
(3) evidence that by reasonable analysis might result in alternate positions of boundaries from those of record. ( 1 ch 32 SLA 1985)

AS Sec. 34.65.040. Records of monument . (a) A land surveyor who in the course of a survey establishes, reestablishes, uses as control, or restores a monument to make it readily identifiable or reasonably durable shall file a monument record, unless the monument and its accessories are substantially as described in a monument record files under this chapter or on a survey plat of record. (b) An agency whose activities will disturb or destroy a monument or its accessories shall have a land surveyor
(1) file a monument record before the monument or its accessories are disturbed or destroyed;
(2) restore or replace the monument and its accessories after the activities have ceased; and
(3) file a new monument record after restoring or replacing the monument or its accessories.
(c) A person who disturbs or destroys a monument shall file a notice of the disturbance or destruction in the office of the district recorder.
(d) A land surveyor may file a monument record for any monument.
(e) A land surveyor who is required to file a monument record under this section shall do so within 90 days of the completion of the survey or of the establishment, re-establishment, or rehabilitation of a monument.
(f) A monument record shall be signed and sealed by the land surveyor responsible for the survey.

I would say that if the surveyor you mentioned also set the Section Corner that is in fact several feet different than record than they would have to file a Record of Survey based on AS 34.65.030.(2)&(3). If he did not set the Section Corner then, at the very least, he would need to file a Record of Monument which would show the evidence he based his decision on.
I regards to the grade hop issue, it appears that AS 34.65.040(b) has been violated.

I've tried this route on several occasions with more than one surveyor after finding major discrepancies in their work. I'm simply not willing to go to the mat and take it up with the BOR and risk losing these surveyors cooperation in a host of other areas. I'm resigned to take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world. I've concluded that in some instances, they don't want their work scrutinized and don't want to divulge information that they feel would put them at a competitive disadvantage. I'm resigned to the fact that in private practice, all too often ego and profit win out at the end of the day over the public's best interest and I'm simply not arrogant or foolish enough to think that I, the might Williwaw, will change their ways, even with the backing of the BOR. (Mind you some of these people have sat on the local platting board) I have a pretty good idea how it would all play out, and it would not end in my favor. Think small town Alaska. Since this directly involves a State maintained road ROW, I'll document my findings and let the DOT/PF deal with it.

I hear what your saying willy. I have had to make those kinds of ethical/practical calculations myself.
Although I am in the private sector and the notion of hiding your work to maintain a competitive advantage is fleeting (although practiced by some old school AK surveyors). If you don't have the cajones to back up your work, than your work isn't worth very much. Personally, I like having my work in the public record, it ensures that it will be perpetrated into the future.
I have rejected a pervious surveyor's work in the past for pulling the kind of stunt you describe, then filled a plat showing what I've done. Because my work did not violate any bona fide (sp) rights, I had no qualms about not using their work.
Excuse my typing, I'm on my phone waiting for an appointment.