This is often discussed, so the other day when I found an instance that the board insisted on it, I thought I would post it:
From Spring 2011
Question:
With the economy as it has been there are many
developers who have abandoned projects with banks
foreclosing on the properties. Many of these properties
are partly or mostly developed (surveyed, streets
constructed etc) when the foreclosure occurred. Some
surveying and engineering firms lost considerable
investment when the charges for their services went
unpaid. Some were even forced to close their business
as a result.
I have been approached to resume work on one of these
projects. The request from a property management
company (bank owned) is to finalize the plat map and
complete the recording process so that lot sales can
proceed. In one particular project all boundary, lot and
street monuments are in place and are capped with the
number of the original LS. He is still in business but
refuses to do anything until he has his past account
settled. The Bank is unwilling to do that. How can I
resume the work as the client is requesting?
Answer:
Here are some things to know: While it may be
desirable to have the prior financial dispute resolved
before you proceed, there is no requirement upon you to
have that completed.
The Board has no rules that require the previous
licensee to grant permission for you to complete their
unfinished work.
Because you did not do the initial work you must
evaluate all aspects of what was done previously to
ensure it conforms to what you find acceptable.
The previous surveyor is under no obligation or
requirement to cooperate with this transition or share
any information with you.
All monuments that contain the tag / certificate number
of the previous LS must be retagged with your certificate
number. Any monuments set by the first LS that are out
of position by your determinations should be reset.
The plat map must be revised to reflect that this is work
under your supervision. All certifications must show
your name and certificate number as deemed necessary.
Makes sense to me.
The question I have comes out of the original question. The original surveyor, still in business, has not completed his work and will not until his account is settled. The bank apparently won't do that. I would wonder why before I invested any time in the job. If they won't pay the original surveyor I have to wonder if they will pay me.
Yeah, that's kind of an iffy area for me. I don't like the idea of working on and finishing work that another surveyor didn't get paid for.
I'm guessing that the other surveyor's client was a now bankrupt developer, and the current client is the bank.
I don't understand bankruptcy, but wouldn't the other surveyor have a claim somehow? Or did that disappear with the bankruptcy?
Personally I wouldn't touch this with a 10' pole. My respect for fellow surveyors and professional courtesy to them would keep me away until the other surveyor was satisfied. Remember, the professional community you live in will outlast this project.
I agree with Dave. I wouldn't touch this job.
My policy is, I don't pull another surveyor's monuments.
Besides being unethical, It's against the law here.
I hate to derail the primary question but it would seem the appropriate thing to do would be to defer services until the original surveyor has been paid for his work. I have a couple of small unpaid projects outstanding, and have had other surveyors ask if I had been paid. The projects were turned away until my invoice had been satisfied and vice versa.
If on the other hand, the surveying company was defunct or the stamping surveyor deceased, I would still use the original pins and call them out as found with a short explanation in the notes. I only pull pins with permission of the surveyor that set them.
:good:
My personal short answer to the short question is Never.
Unless, I'm working for that surveyor and he realized he flubbed up a calc on a pin I set and wants me to pull it and/or move it.
I did work for a guy who told us field monkeys to drive a pin out of sight if it didn't fit. We only did it once while I worked there. I felt uncomfortable about it then and still disagree now. I only worked for that guy about a month. He fired me because he thought I stoled his truck. Turns out before he fired me that morning his wife found his "stolen" truck behind their barn in the backyard. LarryP knows exactly who I'm talking about but I won't mention names. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable about even mentioning that. Know what, I don't care anymore. I was defamed in front of my former field buddies and outright wrongfully accused of grand larceny. Hell, he even called the law on me while I was still at the office! What's up with that? Psycho! That's what's up.
Sorry to digress.... if you set the pin and need to pull it or move, fine.
If not, no.
(I've kept that other story to myself for about 7 years and I had to bust loose)
This is completely Hypothetical.
> The question I have comes out of the original question. The original surveyor, still in business, has not completed his work and will not until his account is settled. The bank apparently won't do that. I would wonder why before I invested any time in the job. If they won't pay the original surveyor I have to wonder if they will pay me.
It came from the State Board's publication here.
The other surveyor's pins aren't monuments?
> I hate to derail the primary question but it would seem the appropriate thing to do would be to defer services until the original surveyor has been paid for his work. I have a couple of small unpaid projects outstanding, and have had other surveyors ask if I had been paid. The projects were turned away until my invoice had been satisfied and vice versa.
>
> If on the other hand, the surveying company was defunct or the stamping surveyor deceased, I would still use the original pins and call them out as found with a short explanation in the notes. I only pull pins with permission of the surveyor that set them.
I cannot speak for the State Board, but it appears from other things that are written for their publication, that whoever writes this probably wouldn't consider those rebars to be monuments.
What are they monumenting? There is no short plat, it doesn't exist as a monument, only a piece of rebar with a cap.
I am not necessarily taking a stance on this, but it is a line of thinking.
Also, I too wonder about taking over a project for a surveyor who hasn't been paid, but since this is only hypothetical, I am sure no one would do that anyway.
In Rhode Island it's an ethics violation to continue with a job knowing that another professional hasn't been paid. I've used that to my advantage when I've had clients decide to ignore my bills and try to get someone else to finish a job.
Per the board answer, and I agree with it, this is a new project. It is not a matter of resuming or finalizing. The previous surveyor is not going to collect anything in this instance because of the bankruptcy. But I would make it clear to the management company that they are not profiting from the previous work because it all has to be redone and charged for as if nothing had taken place yet.
I would let them know that it may be more economical for them to pay the invoice of the first surveyor and retain them, because they are the only ones that could "resume" or "finalize" a process they started without starting from scratch. I would set my fee structure to make sure that is the case. At this point I have done all I can for the other surveyor.
The bank foreclosed on the past surveyor's project, and the issue of getting paid is between the past surveyor and the former owner/client. All his liens against the property were wiped clean by the foreclosure. The bank has no obligation to pay the past owner's bills. It seems bullheaded of the previous surveyor to not pursue the work (i.e., make up some of the lost money), while he continue to pursue the former owner for payment through the courts if he desires. You have to compartmentalize the situation and view the past owner and bank as two different clients.
Pulling someone else’s pins is a big no no.
I once worked for a company that had multiple RPLSs (more than 6 in my office alone). One of the surveyors owned his own company prior and had many caps with his number on them. He used them for his surveys instead of the company’s caps just so he could get rid of them. Well, as luck would have it, he no longer worked for the company and one of his surveys came back with some issues. I inherited the project and indeed found the pins to be about 20 feet from where they should have been. I ended up calling him to explain what had happened and asked if I could pull his pins. I just did not feel comfortable pulling them without his permission. If the caps were the company caps, then it would be a different issue. He thanked me for looking out for him and agreed to the pulling of the pins and resetting new corners in the correct place.
Sad part was that when I called him, he was in the hospital. He ended up not recovering and passed two weeks later. I will never forget him or the project.
Miguel A. Escobar, LSLS, RPLS
No pulling of pins=Pincushion?
> Pulling someone else’s pins is a big no no.
>
Curious: What would you do? Set a pincushion?
No pulling of pins=Pincushion?
I don't believe it is illegal to drive the previous iron deeper into the ground.
This might help the grackel surveyors from finding it first and relying on it.
Do unto others.
> This is often discussed, so the other day when I found an instance that the board insisted on it, I thought I would post it:
So the board is okay with it. But that doesn't make it okay.
1. It's a standard Priciples and Practice exam ethics question, you don't take over a job until the other guy has been properly discharged. But "properly discharged" doesn't necessarily mean that the other guy has been paid in full.
2. If the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't be so happy with some upstart horning in on that job.
3. On the other hand, it isn't fair for the other surveyor to be holding up the development for ransom. His charges may be inflated, his expectations irrational.
4. Taking the job could make for some uncomfortable moments at the annual LSAW Convention for the rest of your career. You are going to be making an enemy for life. Is it worth it?
I'd say that at least this other guy is owed a phone call, at least. I understand that a guy has to do what he has to to put food on the table, but this may not be worth it.
Do unto others.
IF they are more than 0.04' off, by my RTK GPS, I pull 'em out!
That way, the ONLY pins you find, are the ones that fit MY THEORY of where the are!
🙂
Nate
Do unto others.
> > This is often discussed, so the other day when I found an instance that the board insisted on it, I thought I would post it:
> So the board is okay with it. But that doesn't make it okay.
>
> 1. It's a standard Priciples and Practice exam ethics question, you don't take over a job until the other guy has been properly discharged. But "properly discharged" doesn't necessarily mean that the other guy has been paid in full.
>
> 2. If the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't be so happy with some upstart horning in on that job.
>
> 3. On the other hand, it isn't fair for the other surveyor to be holding up the development for ransom. His charges may be inflated, his expectations irrational.
>
> 4. Taking the job could make for some uncomfortable moments at the annual LSAW Convention for the rest of your career. You are going to be making an enemy for life. Is it worth it?
>
> I'd say that at least this other guy is owed a phone call, at least. I understand that a guy has to do what he has to to put food on the table, but this may not be worth it.
>
> LSAW Code of Ethics
Sounds good. This hypothetical situation was created to specifically address a real situation that we run into. In a lot of cases, both the builder and the survey company are bankrupt. I do think that communicating with the other firm in this case would be the nice thing to do, but according to the governing body of surveyors in WA, it is not unethical to not make that call. I would, it only makes sense.
It is an interesting situation presented.
