I'm asked to do a survey of a parcel who's description, for decades, has been kicked down through the deeds without even a mention of a survey and ends up looking like this (subject parcel in red, prior deed for subject in blue).
and spend 45 minutes trying to explain that I'm going to have to run all these deeds back to a parent tract to establish junior/senior rights to determine the lots lines...or if a lot even exists.
"I don't want to survey my neighbor's property, just mine" is the constant refrain. Client upset, until I explain to attorney who recommends client needs a survey in the worst way.
Still makes you feel like you created the problem rather than found it.
Oh c'mon, these are what we live for...:pinch:...
At least you might get paid for some of your time. I have a contract with one client where I provide easement documents for them...at a "fixed" rate per property. Generally I'm in and out and the fixed fee well covers the company's time. When I run into those rat's nests like you've shown I probably loose money.
But situations like what you've shown are where we shine. Sometimes when you get knee-deep into a job like that you realize WHY they called you.
Hope it comes out well and good luck. You'll need it.
paden cash, post: 337586, member: 20 wrote:
At least you might get paid for some of your time.
Sorry, should have mentioned that client choked at $2500 estimate for surveying/mapping. Quote did not include ensuing property line agreements, etc.
I don't think I am going to touch this one.
You're right on, JB. I wouldn't touch that one, even for a family member...ok, especially not for a family member!
Whoever does do this one should have a contract and get a hefty retainer before starting.
Most of the surveys in this area are just like that example.
None are by the same surveyor, each uses a different bearing source and half the time neither took the time to research and find existing monuments or retrace their locations.
One out of three will stab them in at random, another will stake their deed calls and a few will follow some obscure drawing that is not of record.
Then there is the revelation that none of the property descriptions calls for any adjoining property and in reality, these surveys do not join each other on the ground anyway leaving me to fill in the voids and smooth over the overlaps.
Its is good to be a surveyor and fix all these peoples problems.
[sarcasm]I've heard many a client swear that they will never buy another piece of land again cause it is all mess up and costs way too much to get it fixed.[/sarcasm]
B-)
A Harris, post: 337618, member: 81 wrote: ....I've heard many a client swear that they will never buy another piece of land again cause it is all mess up and costs way too much to get it fixed.
B-)
No joke. Who wants to spend $2,500 to have a property worth $2,000 surveyed?
Tom Adams, post: 337631, member: 7285 wrote: No joke. Who wants to spend $2,500 to have a property worth $2,000 surveyed?
If you think folks howl over that, wait until the value hits 400k an acre...
thebionicman, post: 337635, member: 8136 wrote: If you think folks howl over that, wait until the value hits 400k an acre...
I hear you Tom, some of the biggest whiners over cost are the guys with high-value property. They should be considering the price of a survey a small price to pay for some piece of mind and a bit of assurance that they know exactly what they are buying.
thebionicman, post: 337635, member: 8136 wrote: If you think folks howl over that, wait until the value hits 400k an acre...
Where I grew up (suburban Boston), LESS than an acre can be worth an easy million plus. People squabble and sue over tenths of an inch or less.
JB, post: 337581, member: 346 wrote:
"I don't want to survey my neighbor's property, just mine" is the constant refrain.
Still makes you feel like you created the problem rather than found it.
I like to tell these people, "you know that your property boundary is a common boundary with your neighbor. You can't just survey "your" boundary.
I realize it is more complex than this, but if they can't understand this, they can't understand the entire complexity of the situation.
This is why we're licensed and they aren't I guess.
JB, post: 337581, member: 346 wrote: I'm asked to do a survey of a parcel who's description, for decades, has been kicked down through the deeds without even a mention of a survey and ends up looking like this (subject parcel in red, prior deed for subject in blue).
Very common here in NC
JB, post: 337592, member: 346 wrote: Sorry, should have mentioned that client choked at $2500 estimate for surveying/mapping. Quote did not include ensuing property line agreements, etc.
I don't think I am going to touch this one.
I enjoy these type of surveys if the client is willing to pay for the efforts to figure it out, which can not be done without surveying the neighbors and the neighbors neighbors. I'm sure they can find a surveyor to fly in there and do just enough to make them happy and leave the place probably in worse shape than it is now.
The trouble with surveys like the example above is I can almost bet you there are probably several solutions. Granted most differences and methods probably won't differ much at all, but I'm sure there are several ways to skin that cat. And every one of us will defend our solutions as the "correct" method.
I see probably five estates with a vested interest in a definitive boundary survey. To me, the only solution (among all the suggestive procedures written in trusty reference books) would be one that considers the interest of all of the owners...and what are the chances of getting all five (or so) property owners to sit down, listen and make mature decisions concerning their property?
I wouldn't want to attempt it...
Quiet title action? Never been involved in one but something I'm curious about.
Hate burnt toast, but if you scrape off the black stuff it's really not that bad, specially with enough butter.
Just add butter. The more, the better. No need to scrape.
Holy Cow, post: 337800, member: 50 wrote: Just add butter. The more, the better. No need to scrape.
They say charcoal aids with digestion...
paden cash, post: 337699, member: 20 wrote: The trouble with surveys like the example above is I can almost bet you there are probably several solutions. Granted most differences and methods probably won't differ much at all, but I'm sure there are several ways to skin that cat. And every one of us will defend our solutions as the "correct" method.
I see probably five estates with a vested interest in a definitive boundary survey. To me, the only solution (among all the suggestive procedures written in trusty reference books) would be one that considers the interest of all of the owners...and what are the chances of getting all five (or so) property owners to sit down, listen and make mature decisions concerning their property?
I wouldn't want to attempt it...
I had a situation like that come about once. I had helped a buddy with a boundary survey for a square-ish piece of land in the midst of some other rectangular-ish pieces of land. When we got done, the monuments on the south side landed right on the long-standing fences. The monuments on the north that we set were about 25 or so feet northerly of the remains of what appeared to be a wire fence.
He questioned us about that discrepancy (which we duly noted on the recorded survey) and I explained that we had compared his deed along with the deed of each of his adjoiners (all four of them) and everything agreed with the descriptions of record for all of the properties. I told him that it looked like there were some fences off in this area and he might want to discuss this with his neighbors.
About 3 months later, I was on the site with this owner and four of his five neighbors that owned the properties north of his, starting with the adjoiner. They were asking me to explain how all of their fence lines matched up with the distances of their frontages as listed on the deeds, but that they "didn't work" when the land was surveyed.
The problem was that the paved road that ran east-west along the 1/4-1/4 section line wasn't centered on the actual 1/4-1/4 line. In fact, the 22' of pavement landed almost entirely south of that line. And we had the section monuments (that could be followed back in the survey records to the original GLO positions, that matched within 0.15' all around) to support this finding. I explained to the owners that the first owner had a 20 acre parcel that went south off of this road. That owner split pieces off of this land progressively and probably just pulled a chain off of the center of the pavement to decide where to put the fences of each newly created parcel. Given that they were starting in the wrong position (the center of pavement instead of the 1/4-1/4 line) and it just got worse as they went, it wasn't surprising to find 20-30 feet of error in the southerly-most parcels.
And much to my surprise, they all seemed to have that light go on in their heads and they started saying things like "Oh, I see" and "well that makes sense" and "oh, so THIS is the road monument" and so on. I suggested that they collectively get together with each other and try to come up with a plan to put their occupation lines in conformance with their title lines, whether that was to move fences or to to boundary adjustments was up to them. But I would be happy to answer questions if they came up.
There is a very small town in Kansas with the same name as the capital of Ontario that has a section of town off something like 30 feet. All of it. This was an addition to the original town plat. That plat had left something like 30 feet at the edge to be half of a future street. The addition plat showed the same number on its north edge to be that other half of a street with lots and blocks to the south. However, whoever laid out the lots and blocks forgot about that half street. Therefore, everything in that addition is off by that amount yet agrees with everything else on the plat.
I have never had to work there and am only relating what I was told by a longtime surveyor from that area.
skwyd, post: 337818, member: 6874 wrote: I had a situation like that come about once. I had helped a buddy with a boundary survey for a square-ish piece of land in the midst of some other rectangular-ish pieces of land. When we got done, the monuments on the south side landed right on the long-standing fences. The monuments on the north that we set were about 25 or so feet northerly of the remains of what appeared to be a wire fence.
He questioned us about that discrepancy (which we duly noted on the recorded survey) and I explained that we had compared his deed along with the deed of each of his adjoiners (all four of them) and everything agreed with the descriptions of record for all of the properties. I told him that it looked like there were some fences off in this area and he might want to discuss this with his neighbors.
About 3 months later, I was on the site with this owner and four of his five neighbors that owned the properties north of his, starting with the adjoiner. They were asking me to explain how all of their fence lines matched up with the distances of their frontages as listed on the deeds, but that they "didn't work" when the land was surveyed.
The problem was that the paved road that ran east-west along the 1/4-1/4 section line wasn't centered on the actual 1/4-1/4 line. In fact, the 22' of pavement landed almost entirely south of that line. And we had the section monuments (that could be followed back in the survey records to the original GLO positions, that matched within 0.15' all around) to support this finding. I explained to the owners that the first owner had a 20 acre parcel that went south off of this road. That owner split pieces off of this land progressively and probably just pulled a chain off of the center of the pavement to decide where to put the fences of each newly created parcel. Given that they were starting in the wrong position (the center of pavement instead of the 1/4-1/4 line) and it just got worse as they went, it wasn't surprising to find 20-30 feet of error in the southerly-most parcels.
And much to my surprise, they all seemed to have that light go on in their heads and they started saying things like "Oh, I see" and "well that makes sense" and "oh, so THIS is the road monument" and so on. I suggested that they collectively get together with each other and try to come up with a plan to put their occupation lines in conformance with their title lines, whether that was to move fences or to to boundary adjustments was up to them. But I would be happy to answer questions if they came up.
Funny, had one two weeks ago that fits your description of events over time perfectly. Farmer A had let Farmer B use his cattle run to get to a field around a swamp, eventually everyone thought that was the line. We found old cypress fence posts in the swamp that worked out to being very close to deed calls.
