because our surveyor 'changed' the existing pins by a few inches with new pins. He said this was the correct location. We couldn't get title insurance. Neither surveyor would change their pins. We had to hire a lawyer. It took forever. So we learned to never hire a surveyor."
This landowner had built his own fence around his property, got it all wrong, and he maintains that he still had fewer problems than if he were to hire a surveyor. He would rather move 400 feet of fence.
Has anyone ever wondered, why do we set multiple monuments?
> Has anyone ever wondered, why do we set multiple monuments?
On the other hand, there is a certain class of do-it-yourself clients who are always going to just take matters into their own hands, regardless of whether they get the best advice in the world from a surveyor.
I had a client about ten years ago who retained me to locate a boundary of his property that was in dispute. The line had originally been created in about 1848, as I recall, and he had a thick file of deeds that he'd spent hours pouring over (which was refreshing until I discovered the unforeseen side effects of that).
He'd concluded that one particular corner of a tract conveyed to a fellow named "Hammett" back about 1860 was the key to the whole thing and had elaborate theories as to how the Hammett corner was to be located.
When everything was said and done, I'd solved the puzzle to my satisfaction and wrote him a report about it. Because it didn't agree with his cherished theories, he decided that I had failed and urged me once again to locate the Hammett corner, not realizing that I had done just that and that it had fit into the whole pattern (which he didn't like) perfectly.
Who can blame the guy. Two surveyors set monuments for the same corners a few inches apart, each stubbornly insisting they are right, leaving the landowners only with uncertainty as to where their property boundaries really are.
Considering the cost and stress involved in legal action, the landowner is probably right. It's far less trouble to have to move 400' of fence than to deal with the results of an incompetently performed survey.
It's certain that at least one of the two surveyors based his boundary on less than the complete body of available evidence by applying a purely mathematical solution to the limited evidence he used.
"Has anyone ever wondered, why do we set multiple monuments?"
I wonder this frequently, as there are a number of "expert measurers" in my locality. The answer is, of course, that my licensing board's standards are far too low, and continuing education is not required. It is just a matter of time until some attorney takes them to task for violating the task they are charged with - protecting the public.
I was just sent a plat for a water rights filing. The surveyor was doing a subdivision and at the southwest corner which is on the east ROW of a N-S road was a found pin and a note saying the iron pipe was rejected because it is 0.3' north of the "correct" position. SIGH! Rural 20AC tracts and maybe there is a good reason, this isn't a boundary plat, but still.......
SOP where I work. Been that way for over a hundred years. When do they hire a surveyor? When a land use application requires it! Then they hire the cheapest they can find and get way less than they pay for. So it just gets worse.
These guys are waiting for the BIG BOING! That's the day the earth reforms to a perfect cube and everything fits exactly, the simplest, purest PLSS every imagined.
It was just a red flag for me, in fact one of the other PLS in the office looked at it because I was printing it out and he picked it up with some documents he just printed and he said, "hey, did you notice this?" Yeah I saw it, kind of jumps out....Maybe there is a good reason but knowing the area those are original monuments for tracts......I think. Maybe fence construction shifted it.....
"Has anyone ever wondered, why do we set multiple monuments?"
NO! We've never wondered.
~ The Field Crew ~
Theory #47:
[sarcasm]The planet Survey has gone into retrograde[/sarcasm] o.O
Both Surveyors May Be Correct For A Small Part Of The World
It is highly probable that at least one of the two surveyors in question only surveyed one lot. One set may be wrong, but not neccessarily.
Both sets may be right based on some small part of the world. It may be up to the common landowners to decide. They may choose one set or the other, one from each set, or place pins at the mean locations.
Both surveyors may be right, but both surveyors are also wrong because the landowners do not have an understanding of what they did.
Paul in PA
Too many surveyors suffer of "selfie-sitis". They enjoy the sound of their own voices, are busy contemplating their egos, caressing their numbers & findings and feel that the rest of the universe is wrong. Living in a room full of mirrors, life is grant.
The result? They forget about the big picture, which is providing solutions to client.
I feel sorry for this landowner who called upon professionals which in return failed to provide him with a solution, only invoices and unsolved problem.
Well said. Very well said.
At the end of the day, it's about solving problems. If you solve problems, clients will value your service and be happy to pay you. If you create problems, you are just an unneeded expense and clients will lose your phone number in a hurry.
> Too many surveyors suffer of "selfie-sitis". They enjoy the sound of their own voices, are busy contemplating their egos, caressing their numbers & findings and feel that the rest of the universe is wrong. Living in a room full of mirrors, life is grant.
>
> The result? They forget about the big picture, which is providing solutions to client.
>
> I feel sorry for this landowner who called upon professionals which in return failed to provide him with a solution, only invoices and unsolved problem.
Example of a documented pincushion...
Here's a fella that "set" a 1/4 corner...and then states he found a pin in the process of establishing his corner.
Apparently his corner was "more righter" than the one he found...by a little over a foot and a half...sheeeez...:pinch:
Had a young surveyor come into the office and start asking about some property corners set by another LS in our office, this was in a plat from about 1890. As I recall everything "fit" really good and he was saying there was a problem.
When I finally puzzled out what was the "problem" he said the block corners didn't match the section breakdown.
What?
Oh well, and so it begins.........
Example of a documented pincushion...
That's just wrong on so many levels.
Example of a documented pincushion...
sarcasm][/sarcasm So there it is. I've put out all the effort I'm going to do for the money I've been promised. No budget left to explore the origin and integrity of the found pin. Live with it. Now, send me my money.
Both Surveyors May Be Correct For A Small Part Of The World
> It is highly probable that at least one of the two surveyors in question only surveyed one lot. One set may be wrong, but not neccessarily.
>
> Both sets may be right based on some small part of the world. It may be up to the common landowners to decide. They may choose one set or the other, one from each set, or place pins at the mean locations.
>
> Both surveyors may be right, but both surveyors are also wrong because the landowners do not have an understanding of what they did.
>
> Paul in PA
Uhhhhh..., no.
What you are describing is a failure of a very non-professional professional to understand their role in the system of real property.
Stephen
> Has anyone ever wondered, why do we set multiple monuments?
Well, every time that I have set monuments in an area that someone else has already monumeted what they think is the corner, I know why I am placing another set of monuments.
Classic example -
After trying very hard to resolve why someone else had set their corners as found, I could not find a way to agree with their determination. I had spoken to the affected neighbor and she did not want to even talk about it. So I get in touch with the other surveyor and they are nice enough as to send a copy of the survey they did. I find that a 'stone' they found was not a stone, but a chunk of concrete around a wooden fence corner. After much discussion, they did not seem to want to change their opinion, so I had two choices: either agree with an obviously incorrect survey or set another set of monuments. I set more monuments and explained the situation to the neighbor providing her with a copy of my map. Guess what ----- she knew the prior survey was incorrect and that the line went right where I monumented it. Accepting every metal object you find just because it might be a corner does no one a service!
A surveyor can make a mistake, a property owner can decide that since it benefits them, the mistake is perfectly okay, or property owners can mistakenly believe that a surveyor will never make a mistake.
People can make mistakes. Surveyors are people. Surveyors can make mistakes.
If any of you ever find one of my markers and think I am incorrect, PLEASE CALL ME. We can discuss what you found, what I found, and what we decide is the correct solution. Just because my marker is in place does not mean that there is 0% chance that I am mistaken. I hope to have the opportunity to make mistakes for a number of years to come - that means I'm still alive.
Example of a documented pincushion...
Cool, but if I was I work right now...
... as I recall:
Fd. IP capped xxxxxx as shown in corner cert yyyy-zzzz. Fd nail with red cloth N90E 0.10FT. Nail with red cloth from unrecorded survey that is older than survey setting IP capped xxxxxx so used nail as true monument.
I see many many like this.
Steve
I believe that the chief reason that one finds multiple monuments at a corner is a result of evidence, either a lack thereof, or an analysis that gives more weight to certain pieces of evidence than others.
For example, get two attorneys, you'll get two different opinions. Why? Because they each will do their due diligence and uncover most of the same evidence, but one of them may uncover some evidence that the other didn't find. The other lawyer may have been too lazy to look, or just plain missed it. You couple that with their weighting of the evidence, and they will differ. They only put their opinion in writing and not on the ground as we do.
Keeping the above example in mind, I see surveyors who have field crews who are either too lazy to look for all the evidence, or too green to know where to look and what to look for. The surveyor in charge usually does not make a trip to the field to look either. Is it really a surprise that our opinion of the corner location is different? Now, let's suppose that the other surveyor and I both find all the same evidence. I may construct the boundary differently because of how I view/weight the evidence and the written intentions of the parties.