Upsetting Problem

> I do not know exactly how I am going to handle it but I suppose if we uncover some hard evidence of this I will present it to the Board. It is my responsibility to, right?

I'd say it pretty much depends upon what the rules promulgated by your Kentucky board provide. The main problems that I see would be in the areas of:

- misleading representations (if the client wanted the boundary markers of their property identified and flagged and the surveyor did not make an adequate investigation to accomplish that with any reasonable certainty), and

- minimum standards for surveying (if the act of identifying boundary markers constitutes the practice of surveying, as one would think that it should).

If Kentucky licensees have an obligation to report violations of the standards of practice, then I see no reason not to set the facts known to you before the board and to let them make such further inquiry as may be necessary. While it seems unlikely, it is nonetheless possible that there is some benign explanation for particular cases.

In my mind, we have a responsibility to ourselves as a profession AND to the general public. Helping cease the activity is the goal.

I believe it is misleading the public about what a survey is really all about and it hurts the profession by offering sub-standard services at a fraction of standard fees. And I believe turning a blind eye to such activities only perpetuates the problem.

I personally wouldn't actively attempt to find "hard evidence" on my own. That is up to the governing body. But I would do something. Contact the board? Perhaps. Contact the surveyors? Possibly. But my experience is those folks are full of a "damn the torpedoes" kind of attitude.

If you have heard or seen enough evidence to lead you to believe this is an active problem, turn that evidence over to those whose business it is to investigate.

mi dos centavos

Thanks for the input.

Definition per the KY MSP

Boundary survey" means a survey to: (a) Determine either the entire perimeter of a parcel or tract of land, or a portion of the perimeter of a parcel or tract of land; (b) Establish or reestablish a parcel or tract of land’s corner or monument; or (c) Divide or consolidate the parcels or tracts of land surveyed.

> In my mind, we have a responsibility to ourselves as a profession AND to the general public. Helping cease the activity is the goal.
>
> I believe it is misleading the public about what a survey is really all about and it hurts the profession by offering sub-standard services at a fraction of standard fees. And I believe turning a blind eye to such activities only perpetuates the problem.
>
> I personally wouldn't actively attempt to find "hard evidence" on my own. That is up to the governing body. But I would do something. Contact the board? Perhaps. Contact the surveyors? Possibly. But my experience is those folks are full of a "damn the torpedoes" kind of attitude.
>
> If you have heard or seen enough evidence to lead you to believe this is an active problem, turn that evidence over to those whose business it is to investigate.
>
> mi dos centavos

Thanks for the advice. I agree.

> Boundary survey" means a survey to: (a) Determine either the entire perimeter of a parcel or tract of land, or a portion of the perimeter of a parcel or tract of land; (b) Establish or reestablish a parcel or tract of land’s corner or monument; or (c) Divide or consolidate the parcels or tracts of land surveyed.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the critical element of the "find the corners" service is what disclaimers were made in the course of rendering it. If the responsible surveyor made a formal statement to the effect that "this service does not constitute a boundary survey as defined in Kentucky and this surveyor makes no representation that it does", then the above rules would not appear to preclude offering that service.

To be on the right side of any potentially misleading representations, I'd think that the surveyor would also need to specifically inform his or her client in writing that no assurance whatsoever is offered that what appear to be boundary markers that were dug up and flagged up do in fact mark any boundary at all. In effect, the surveyor would need to inform the client that he or she does not consider the service to be reliable but that there it is, take it or leave it, and send me the money as agreed to at the following address.

In short, I think that the "find my corners" service might be great as a subject for a column in POB Magazine, but everywhere else it is just like circulating counterfeit money, a bad idea that comes with a larger net cost than net benefit.

In WV if you are finding/recovering corners or evidence of corners, you are surveying. Even if you never take an instrument out of the box or pull a tape.

well, How do you know that they haven't surveyed it previously and are recovering the monuments from that survey?? Not saying that your concern isn't valid, but you might only be seeing part of what's going on.

I've made the comparison before: it is interesting that surveyors are held to a standard that allows them no judgment as to how much investigation to do. You want me to find a corner? I've got to do the maximum investigation and bill you.

If you applied those rules to doctors, you'd get every conceivable lab test and an (expensive) MRI or CAT scan every time you went in with a complaint, in order to show that you didn't have some more serious disease. Protecting the public.

Similarly, your tax preparer would have to personally do a full audit of your business accounting and personal bank transactions before filling out the tax forms.

You want a flat tire fixed? What if the mechanic said, "Sorry, the law says we have to also do an engine analysis, battery test, oil and filter change, transmission service, and new belts before we can allow this vehicle back on the road."

There are reasons for doing the full research and survey, but it makes all surveys expensive so people avoid getting them done.

Well, I'm on the fence on this one. I have a job, and don't offer this service. If I have a knack for finding monuments in the ground and own a schoenstedt, what's the harm in recovering what's out there? I definitely think making it abundantly clear that this doesn't constitute a boundary survey. But just why are monuments driven in the ground anyway? Isn't it to memorialize the corners? Are we trying to say that we set someone's boundary, but don't rely on anything we did unless you pay us $1,000 to come back out and tell you that you can see them again?

This is an interesting conumdrum. When are we surveying and when are we not surveying?

Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute. I surveyed this parcel two months ago. I was onsite throughout. Today, I drive up and see two bars that I set two months ago that appear to be exactly where I put them and they show no evidence of tampering.

If I tell a property owner standing there: "Yup, that's your corners." some will say I am doing a disservice to the profession.

On the other hand. If I go through the exact same motions, except for the part about saying something to the property owner, and accept those two bars as part of my recon for a job down the street, I am simply doing normal survey work.

Are we to say that we cannot accept monuments set on one survey for use in a second survey unless we resurvey the first tract again?

Now............I understand that what the original poster is assuming is that the current concern is someone with a metal detector sort of wandering around aimlessly until they discover something that appears to be a survey monument and then declaring to the property owner, "Here's your corner." That is a completely different situation and one that needs to be stopped promptly by whatever means are available. For example, a fellow who works fulltime going through the same motions while employed by a surveying company could buy his own metal detector and shovel, then go out and do bar retrieval for a fee on weekends. He has no license to lose.

So why does it upset you that a PLS provides what the customer asks for? Whatever happened to the old adage that the customer is always right?
If he is a licensed individual providing a surveying service as requested I don't see the problem.

In my state of NC, a licensed land surveyor is not permitted by law to provide a corner locating service without enough surveying to determine that, in his professional opinion, the monument he has located is the true monument for that corner. Then he must provide written documentation to the landowner in the form of either a map with his signature and seal or an affidavit describing what he did and how he arrived at his opinion.
If unlicensed, I guess it's OK to provide the service.

When I was living and working in NC I was visiting a local friend who had nearby neighbor sitting there. I pull in with the survey rig [no identifying marks]. He asked me to go flag up his corners for him. I guess my buddy told I was a now a surveyor. He already had it surveyed a couple months prior but the guy didn't flag it up to his liking so he asked would I do it. Sure I would for a friend of a good friend - no problem. I mentioned something about it on the old POB forum thinking no big deal. Golly mercy did I get excoriated for even thinking such a thing!!
I didn't figure it was a big deal since he just had it surveyed and was happy to provide me with the map. I didn't ask for money or anything. Just gonna do a favor for a friend of a good friend. The feller solicited me, I didn't solicit him. Funny thing is some of those excoriating me publicly on the POB forum told me "go ahead, it ain't no big deal". That's what they told me in private on the phone.

Shortly after that I started getting some emails that the NC BOR was "watching" me. Don't know what for. Don't really know if that's true or not. They never contacted me. I never did that old man's job nor have I done any side work. When approached about side work I have always handed them a business card of the PLS I'm working for at the time. I figure that's the right thing to do.

Had a couple of contractors try to get me to get my own total station and stuff and they would load me up with stake out work. I'd just soon not get into that gray area. I'd soon be able to sleep at night and broke than push that line.

BigE, sorry other surveyors jumped you. I myself do not see that you did anything wrong. As you know, we can be a mean lot, can't we?

I've never liked flagging up corners without a survey anyhow, so the current prohibition against it hasn't affected me.
Years ago at a surveying seminar, before "continuing education" was forced on us, the presenter cautioned us to never say, "That's the property corner.", to anyone including, your client, the adjoiners, the neighbors, or even your employees until you have completely finished your evidence gathering, made your analysis, and can state a professional opinion that you feel that you can defend.
He also warned against one of your employees making such a statement.

I never like putting flags at a monument until after I've finished. Unfortunately, too many times in my career the client, especially a real estate agent, thinks you haven't been to the site unless he sees flagging everywhere.

> I am pretty sure I have stumbled upon a PLS or two in my working area that provide a "find my corners" service without doing an actual retracement survey. I believe they are just using their pin finder to uncover existing monuments and showing them to the client. They pocket a few hundred bucks and offer to verify, do an actual survey, if their client requests.

Before you pursue this too far, you might want to be sure you are making correct assumptions based on reliable evidence. "Turning someone into the board" when you are only guessing at what actually is going on, is at least as unprofessional as what you think the guy MAY be doing.

> It is one of types of calls we all get, " I just need my corners found, not a survey". I believe we are held to a higher standard as professionals, not to mention the protect the public responsibility.
>

Finding the corners IS what a retracement survey is. What else would or should he be doing? I find many monuments using the "pin-finder" and shovel and show them to the landowners, that IS, after all, my job when retracing a boundary.

> I do not know exactly how I am going to handle it but I suppose if we uncover some hard evidence of this I will present it to the Board. It is my responsibility to, right?

Again, I'd suggest finding out for sure what is going on. Has he located monuments that were NOT the corners? What evidence do YOU have that they are not the corners? How exactly is he finding the them? What exactly is he representing to the landowners? What exactly did he contract to do? Trust me, going off half-cocked to a power-tripping board or staff could create a major problem for someone who MAY be doing his job as required, but now is persecuted unnecessarily so. I've been on the crappy end of that stick before.

Not being licensed in Kentucky I can not speak specifically to you laws. The first thing I take from your post is that the individuals providing this service are licensed since you mentioned PLS. That leaves us with a question of standards and practices.

Taking this to the extreme, lets say out here in the west a land owner holds title to the west half of section 10. He hires me to locate the four corner of his property, nothing more. I go into the field and find all of the corners ( N1/4, NW, W1/4, SW & S1/4) are in so I mark them up and never break out the gun. Are you trying to say that I need to break out the gun to tie between the corners even though the monuments hold? Next lets say that instead of a sectional property we have a platted lot and that I find the original, undisturbed corners for the line my client wants to build a fence along. How would the outcome be change if I were to measure between them? Why would I perform an additional task that does nothing but cost the client?

So much for the simultaneous types. I am licensed in several recording states and if some sets a new monument there is supposed to be a record of it. My client requests that I recover the corners marking her southern line. I review the public records and find that the line was marked 15 years ago. Once again I take my trusty pin finder out and find the monuments in question. Do I really need to repeat the survey done 15 years prior? In this case I would most likely measure between the points to check for gross error but I would be no means do a full boundary resolution.

I find it interesting that everyone complains, and rightfully so, of pin cushions but then says we need to re-invent the wheel every time the land owner want to know were the existing pin are located. How do you think the pin cushion got there. If we need to do that then why even place semi-permanent monuments like rods and screws, why not just set a 6 penny nail.

Bottom line, if the monuments are in and called for and you find no physical dependencies to the record why should you be required to re-survey. What every body should be clambering for is recording laws so that we can truly follow in the foot steps of the guy behind us.

John Putnam, PLS
OR, WA, CA, ID

I appreciate all of the input from the beer leg forum. I lean on my fellow professional surveyors when I need advice. Thank you for your comments and suggestions and as always, happy surveying to all. Sometime in the near future, I will be more descriptive and let all know how it played out.

I almost learned a lesson the expensive way shortly before I was licensed. The company I worked for had created a subdivision, then a year or so later staked a house for a builder on one of the lots. The builder had a buyer for the lot and wanted the corners flagged (code for "I don't want to pay much"). I went out paced the lines, located and flagged the monuments and almost decided to leave without pulling out the instrument to save time and thus money for the builder. I ended up setting up the instrument and checking the pins. Lo and behold, the front right pin (complete with cap and looking unmolested) was 3 feet to far back from the road but within .01 of the distance to the front left pin. Apparently it had been disturbed by the installation of the underground utilities to the house and very carefully reset by someone with just enough knowledge and skill to be dangerous. I triple checked it against the calculated position, the stored shot from when we originally set the pin, and the check shot from when we staked the house. Those all agreed within a hundredth this way or that so I called the boss then pulled it and reset it in the original position.

Anytime someone asks me to "just flag my corners" or says "I just need you to survey one line" I tell them I can't/won't do that and explain why.

A "mean lot"... I suppose so. Some are and some are just as laid back as myself. At first I felt like I was being attacked personally. I told the old man I wasn't an LS and he appreciated that me being honest about it. Like I said he had it surveyed but he just wanted it all flagged up - nothing more. He already knew where the pins were. Nothing was in dispute. The only equipment I might have needed besides the role of flagging would have been my bearing compass.
Of course I did nothing wrong cause I did nothing in the end. Everyone kind of freaked me out and got me all scared and stuff. I was still something of a greenhorn in surveying and dam sure didn't want to step on any toes. I wasn't going to blaze any trees or anything. All I was going to do was hook up some flagging to the pins and drape it to the nearest branch so it could be seen.
I was trying to be super careful not to step on toes for that matter. At the time I was working for a rather well known engineering firm. We didn't mess with personal boundary stuff unless DOT called for it. All our work at the time was pretty much civil engineering stuff.

A month or so later another very good friend asks me to stake line for a fence. Oh hell no! I ain't getting into that. He only wanted it for his cow "Bitty Girl" - a monster black angus just as sweet as can be. That cow was a pet and knew everytime my truck came pulling up to the house. She's ready to go for a ride - and she did. Wish I had pics. If anyone says a cow cant be a pet - I'll beg to differ. Bitty would come and set with us on the porch (which I also helped build).

I am reminiscing big time.
Sorry. I am wont to do that.
E