The future of surveying... from a younger perspective.

Been out here a whole year eh, I guess that gives you the requisite experience to cast judgement on an entire state, perhaps a few more months and you can speak to the state of surveying in Oregon, Idaho, and Montana as well.

Totally inappropriate & snotty comment not worthy of a professional. He offers some honest, thought provoking comments and all you can do is toss stones.

His thoughts have merit and worthy of honest discussion.

I apologize for taking such a tone.

I got defensive as I have met and worked with some field hands that bring a very impressive understanding of all aspects of the profession, as well as office folk who have certainly paid and continue to pay their dues in the field.

Also a bit of the old "Welcome to Washington, now go back to California" mentality (that used to be a bumper sticker around here, not sure if they have those everywhere).

I read another article somewhere that also bemoaned the effects of recording on the profession, in particular on pricing. I think another negative could be the temptation of surveyors to hang there hat on any survey of a LS with a good rep, regardless of the strength of the survey istelf. But as far as the public good is concerned I can only see redecoration as a benefit and feel that it is a benefit to the profession as well even if it comes with some price.

The technology is pushing the profession out. I started out as a rod man and worked my way up from there. Now guys are starting out as I men and within 6 months are crew chiefs just because they know how to set the instrument up and know what buttons to push. With me being a project manager I get calls non stop throughout the day from the guys that lack the confidence or knowledge of being a crew chief. But thanks to technology that's what our profession has become. I could go on and on. As far as the age I'm 28 years old have 9 years of experience, 2 year degree and working on my 4 year. I have seen the profession change dramatically in the 9 years. I know we must keep up with technology but we can not let everyone forget the fundamentals that got us here.

In my assessment it is not the technology but greed that drives the trend. It is not the ease of measurement or cogo that is causing incompetence and inexperience to rise through the ranks but the bottom line of companies not wanting to invest in their people.

I think that the counter argument is that the profession has not embraced technology enough, remote sensing seems on the verge of taking over massive amounts of topography mapping and as far as I can tell it may not even be surveyors doing the work when the time comes.

The stubbornness of some surveyors, both office and field, to do things the way it has always been done leaves a big window for work to flow out of our offices through markets like machine control construction, remote sensing, GIS, plug and play GPS etc.

I must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today, first I take a aggressive and poor tone with the OP and now I bash the whole profession.

Technology didn't promote a guy with six months experience to the position of party chief, someone in management did.

The problem isn't necessarily technology, per se, it's what Neil Postman referred to as Technopoly, the end product when men choose to cede their authority to make decisions to technology.

Technology has blurred the cristal clear picture of hierarchy that existed in the field: assistant, instrument person, party chief. It also has had an effect on the billable structure. It also negatively accelerated the natural progression from one position to the next.

With very little experience, considerable amount of survey data can be collected. Clients do no want to pay two guys to walk with one GNSS system. "What am I paying the other guy for?"

So what's the future of surveying? A big issue to address is to figure out a way to provide mentoring under these economics. As much as people do not like to treat surveying as a trade, if the mindset and legislation were similar to journeymen professions, we could more easily mentor (and have a tool to have the client pay for it) our young workforce with a minimum 4 years of field experience or 8,000 hours before accessing the next level.

> I have come to the realization that if something does not change soon with the way the practice of surveying is carried out here the survey profession is doomed...

It is my belief that if any profession is supposed to die off then it should die, reason being is that is how the market dynamics work, if it becomes obsolete, devalued, or irrelevant within the current world and social context then it will die off.

A market is not driven by the needs of the entrepreneur, it is driven by the needs and wants of the consumer.

The reason you can't live with out your smart phone is because you need it and want it, it is extremely relevant within todays context, if that were not the case then the smartphone would die off.

Consumers do not care about the surveying profession, they only want to achieve their intended goal, if that includes a survey fine, if not even better for them, no body wishes for a surveying need.

If it sounds like a brutal outlook, that's likely because you are trying to hold on instead of evolve.

Adaptability is of supreme importance in todays world context.

Word,
BL

Interesting post and replies.

The only real comment I might have is that the complaint you have has more to do with the culture of the company you are currently working for, more than the whole State. And I agree that that is a very large problem. A licensed surveyor has to know all aspects of the field (the "field" of surveying that is, which would include the on-the-ground field and the office).

People can help to push changes and I agree with the fact that many things will change with the time and technology.

your insight is welcome - and needed to keep the profession going.

I worked in the same area in Colorado before the passing of the Plat Deposit Law in 1987, and since its implementation.

Before the law was enacted that requires us to FILE surveys with the county surveyor (distinctly different than recording), we spent a lot of time wondering how the monuments we did find got there. Often, we were not able to do proper RETRACEMENT due to lack of historic knowledge. That made us look bad to the clients - but the worse part of those days was that it was more lucrative for surveyors to do substandard work, charge 2 bits for it, and get away with it.

Since 1987, we can look at plats filed by surveyors and understand why they put monuments where they did - so we can now do a much better job of RETRACEMENT. And, surveyors can no longer easily get away with 2 bit work - because we now have written standards that can isolate the violators and help us screen them out through the state board. In other words, no shopper can find a 2 bit surveyor to do the work because it is now technically illegal, as opposed to the old days.

So, I have seen with my own eyes a definate improvement in the profession for both surveyors and landowners, due specifically to the plat deposit law.

I highly recommend that any state without some form of a required filing system to get one enacted in their state. I personally prefer a simple filing law like we have as opposed to a recording law.

ww co pls

- Have a nice day! or, may your monument prevail over some guy's touchscreen.

I cannot imagine the agony of working in a non-recording State. As Warren mentioned, knowing why you found something provides added confirmation to the remainder of your project. The opposite simply encourages the idea of doing whatever seems the most profitable at the time, then dissappear.

Everyone involved with a survey crew needs to learn all aspects of the job. The draftsman needs to spend time in the field regularly. The field crew needs to spend time in the office attempting to comprehend data supplied by others. Everyone needs to spend time at the Courthouse and other repositories of key information so as to understand the history and importance of the final product. All need to witness how the principal(s) handles the clients and balances workload. Surveying should not emulate an assembly line where the guy installing the steering wheel never meets the guy installing the brake pedal.

There has always been a "future" in Land Surveying

And always will.

I worked for a number of years using a field vehicle that had one battery...the truck battery. Nothing else required 'trisstee'. I also worked for a fine gentleman that was born in Oklahoma Territory, not the State of Oklahoma. Some things I learned from this man did not manifest until well after my tenure with him.

We were the younger generation. While we embraced the EDM we also had our feet firmly planted in the traditions of surveying. My boss wasn't so impressed with the electronics and new fangled "coordinate geometry". "It's just lats and deps." He use to say, "Been doing it for years".

I had performed a large tricky boundary in some terrain that was unforgiving. Chain and transit work would have taken dynamite and dozers and a year. I was going to prove that our new electronic equipment (HP3800) could revolutionize the industry and make "tried and true" methods obsolete. The old man "let me play" and consented to my planning.

I brought a raw traverse into the office that closed 1:90,000. We were still wrapping angles with K&Es, so this was what I thought was exceptional work. After the old man mulled it over in his office he called me in for conference.

He wanted me to go back out and shoot a couple of more legs. His sentiment was that one hard to get to corner was only tied with one distance. He wanted some redundancy to rely on. I was a little pissed at the time. My argument was that the technology was infallible. I argued that if I did run more legs, I bet it wouldn't move that point any at all.

He told me that it better not move it at all. He was paying us to be precise. He then explained how he could not rely upon only one observation. The term "side shot" had not yet been coined. He continued to explain to me that he understood that the electronic distance measurements were far cleaner than chaining. But that is only one tool in a complex mathematical determination of multiple physical locations that superseded merely one measurement. Depending on only that measurement because I felt it was so precise could, in fact, destroy the integrity of the entire boundary.

I remember he said, "There will always be error in measurements. We want to make sure we make the same error coming and going so the calculated relation of the corners can relied upon." He understood "record and measured" and "indexing" because that was so much a part of his world. To him, the exact distances within a survey were not as important as the relationship of all the distances reported upon that survey.

Anyway, I realized years later I was taught things that still apply today..by a man that never lived to see AutoCAD, GPS, lidar and all the other neat goodies we use today.

There are some younger surveyors that whether they know it or not, have picked up on the important things about our industry that will take it into the future. I'm not any more worried about the future of surveying than my old boss was when I was a greenhorn. There will always be a place for a Land Surveyor that can apply the science in an analytical and professional manner. We merely have finer tools today than yesterday.

Sail on youngsters.. I pray thee fare well and long. Remember what us old guys have taught you. :good:

There has always been a "future" in Land Surveying

:good:

I came into this game as the last of those that ran transits and chains, long before the EDM, were entering into the realm of retirement. The crew chief I started out with was 55 in 1998 and he taught me much about the profession. The Survey instructor in college was already retired and taught the "old ways" before you ever touched the "new stuff". It was fun and a learning experience.

I have worked for both the small town surveyor with no data collection up in the hills, the regional mid size firms, up to the large international firms in my short time in this game. I have seen the people come and go based on work flow and money. In the end the small guy was still there long after the larger firms spun off their surveying. He is still using the field book to write down the angles and distances. The larger firms come to him now wanting survey work completed.

Things progress and things change, the Survey Profession is under going such a change. While I do not consider building layout surveying, it is what it is, the topographical and boundary portions are still the same but, completed with new tools.

As for the crew chiefs being button pushers most of those I know can lay plans on the hood and go to work.

There has always been a "future" in Land Surveying

so - don't leave us hanging; were the "go back" measurements right?

Recording Act and boundary law

Welcome to Washington,

I hope that you stick around and become part of the solution.

There have already been some very good replies to your first post. Here are a few of my observations.

I am not familiar with any other state except that of Washington, and while the Survey profession is quite technocratic here, it seems from the posts on this forum that the same problems occur in other states. At the very least, your complaints are echoed by many surveyor's across the country.

I have come to the conclusion that there must be some common error that leads to the problem. Surveyors in many different areas get started with technology and never get around to boundary law. Why not start with boundary law first? Is not that the most decisive principle of discerning a boundary.

I did not even hear the term BOUNDARY LAW until I began studying for my PLS (14 years into my surveying career). Even then, what was covered (by the recommended courses) were only technical standards, like map standards, allowable error in measuring, platting laws, recording requirements, etc. Anything that I have learned about the common law has been entirely on my own -at the county law library. Boundary law is not something that surveyors like to talk about. Those that do follow the law seem to have picked up enough from the textbooks (Cartesian manuals); or from some mentor. For example, some surveyors will hold the monuments of an original survey. Others will make a pincushion at the same corner.

I look at dozens of survey in month (one good thing about a recording state), and while surveyors in my neck of the wood like to hide things, I would affirm that as a whole the practice of surveying boundaries is rather technocratic matter.

By the way, the recording act is not the problem. It actually helps because the laws in this state require some things that indicate what method of boundary resolution you used. The problem is that most surveyors like to put as little as possible on their recorded surveys. They hide an awful lot. Partly for economic and competitive reasons and, partly because they would prefer that questions or alternative boundaries not be considered. Why cause uncertainty or confusion? Just hide any contrary evidence!

There is a movement by some surveyors in Washington to require a narrative in surveys. Look at the North Olympic chapter of the LSAW for more info. The idea is that the survey should be able to stand alone without regards to oral testimony. As a technical standard it would not solve most of the problem, but it would be a beginning to discuss what is necessary in a proper boundary resolution.

Sincerely, Stephen Zitkovich

There has always been a "future" in Land Surveying

I don't really remember all the details, but I'm thinking everything fit fine. Knowing me and the cocky attitude I had back then I probably "pencil whipped" it. :snarky:

But that's ok. The old man knew me better than I knew myself.

Boundary Lines

Yours are the best comments in this thread.

Technology won't kill our profession. Greed won't kill our profession.

Lack of business sense (knowing what the client believes he needs) AKA a good bed side manner and lowballing will kill this profession.

Machete....That's funny, what are you chopping, Rose bushes? Next thing your going to tell me is you wear jeans while surveying? No real surveyor that has worked in the elements wears jeans!