This has been an on going problem for the many years, and it appears to be getting more common.?ÿ Most topographic survey maps, that are a part of the construction plans, just don't have enough information for anyone to start from. Forcing a call back to the original surveyor, which is what I believe is the intent. They often tell me that benchmarks, baselines, and property corners were NOT part of the their contract. It is the surveyors obligation to protect the public, not fleece them. These are standards of practice and this is why the owners and developers hired a Licensed Surveyor, to be protected. My goal is to change this, by educating the owners, planners and developers to what they should know when ordering a topographic survey.?ÿ
What would be the best forum to or method to contact the?ÿowners, planners and developers?
They often tell me that benchmarks, baselines, and property corners were NOT part of the their contract.?ÿ
No one (well, almost no one) pays for a topographic survey without the intent to improve the property; therefore any surveyor who writes a proposal for one and doesn't include setting corners as part of the scope is doing the equivalent on a surveyor who excluded setting corners from a boundary survey.?ÿ?ÿ
I agree, it's a pain. However, can't you do a vertical calibration to the feature shown on the plan set (i.e. Sewers, spot elevations)? Regarding the baseline - well that may be a problem - but look deep, the devil is in the details. There could be enough info on the plans to make it work.?ÿ Are there ties to the property line from structures?
One other item to consider is the big elephant in the room....Yes, I assume they are protecting themselves. Many surveyors out there are butt hurt folks not licensed are doing a lot of staking. However, the flip side is...there are many folks doing staking that are just button pushers (not implying you are, please don't take offense) and they do not have the math power to calc the improvement based on the plan set, instead "stakers" just want the control points given to them along with the CAD file so they can go make some quick money. Once that data is handed over to "you" then that surveyor could be held liable for anything staked in the wrong place...Big picture items here - they aren't just holding you down. Good luck and I feel your pain.
STSurveyor,
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Yes, I often will use manhole covers, catch basins, first floors, along with ties to existing curb or pavement for verifications. But recently the surveys have been showing these elevations only?ÿto the nearest tenth of a foot. Which is out of acceptable tolerance.
I do agree with your point, that the surveyors are trying to protect themselves from rogue contractors. But there must be a better way. Often?ÿwhen I call and talk surveyor to surveyor they are more than accommodating. They will provide me with their BM's, baseline nails and cad files. In return, I ensure them that they will be involved in the construction staking of building and often the curb layout also. I'm contracted to build the 3d surfaces for machine?ÿguidance and verify GPS base station for Horiz and vertical control. Trouble is they often want to get permission and signed documents from owners, contractors, and developers. This usually takes several days.
There are regulations here on what must be shown, if I do a topographic plan I must show a minimum number of benchmarks (dependent on area). I however do not have to do a full survey for a topographic plan nor show any reference ties to the property lines or control points.
I don't give contractors my control points (ever) or release cad files to anyone unless it's been agreed upon before hand with the owner. I also don't set control points for contractors. I get too many calls from people who tell me they priced their project on getting my information to do their job, I typically also gave a proposal to do the same work and I refuse to cut my own throat to provide you with my job.
Rant over
AlphaSurv,
You have described the exact situation. SO what is the solution? Just bastardizing the survey and ignore it until the 11th hour, certainly does NOT work.?ÿ
I'm not a contractor, I'm a surveyor that you are ranting against. If I performed the original topo I would show enough information for any surveyor to follow in my footsteps?ÿfrom the paper plan, regardless of what my contract read. If the property survey is not to be performed, I would at least show a few nails with coordinates for baseline and benchmarks. The more you push against this process, the less involved you will be in the future (you are cutting your own throat). Contractors and developers are looking for a team working towards the same goal.
Most of my work is pre-design mapping.?ÿ With the rare exception, my work will be used for future development.?ÿ My practice is to include 3D coordinate information on at least two semi-permanent (read not hubs or 6 penny nails) control stations per project.?ÿ I do not include provide information on any control that is not part of my primary control network or that is temporary in nature (those 6 penny nails or small PKs set to shot in a couple of hidden topo shots).?ÿ I only release the data to the client or a third party with permission of the client.
Most of my work is pre-design mapping.?ÿ With the rare exception, my work will be used for future development.?ÿ My practice is to include 3D coordinate information on at least two semi-permanent (read not hubs or 6 penny nails) control stations per project.?ÿ I do not include provide information on any control that is not part of my primary control network or that is temporary in nature (those 6 penny nails or small PKs set to shot in a couple of hidden topo shots).?ÿ I only release the data to the client or a third party with permission of the client.
Most of my work is pre-design mapping.?ÿ With the rare exception, my work will be used for future development.?ÿ My practice is to include 3D coordinate information on at least two semi-permanent (read not hubs or 6 penny nails) control stations per project.?ÿ I do not include provide information on any control that is not part of my primary control network or that is temporary in nature (those 6 penny nails or small PKs set to shot in a couple of hidden topo shots).?ÿ I only release the data to the client or a third party with permission of the client.
Well said (3x).?ÿ
Well said (3x).?ÿ
Posts in triplicate are always more serious than the standard single post?ÿ
I'm hoping that some of those issues the OP is having will be taken care of around here (WA) if the proposed Topographic Standards the DNR is proposing are adopted.?ÿ At the very least, it'll give those of us that already put that stuff on our topo surveys the ability to point to state law when faced with a survey that doesn't have it.?ÿ And hopefully, it will level the bids out a little, so that we are all working from the same rules (though it probably won't work out that way - those feeding at the bottom will figure out a way to stay there).?ÿ
Here is a link to the proposed rules, if anyone is interested: http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/law/wsr/2017/23/17-23-071.htm
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This has been an on going problem for the many years, and it appears to be getting more common.?ÿ Most topographic survey maps, that are a part of the construction plans, just don't have enough information for anyone to start from. Forcing a call back to the original surveyor, which is what I believe is the intent. They often tell me that benchmarks, baselines, and property corners were NOT part of the their contract. It is the surveyors obligation to protect the public, not fleece them. These are standards of practice and this is why the owners and developers hired a Licensed Surveyor, to be protected. My goal is to change this, by educating the owners, planners and developers to what they should know when ordering a topographic survey.?ÿ
What would be the best forum to or method to contact the?ÿowners, planners and developers?
You need to start with the Engineer or Architect that prepared the plans not the surveyor that prepared the topographic survey.?ÿ If ABC Engineer or Architect contracts with ABC surveyor with a clear scope and fee who are you to say the surveyor didn't?ÿ provide YOU with enough information.?ÿ They have no contract with you.?ÿ The surveyor certainly isn't going to spend his time and $ for something the client does not want.?ÿ
Most engineers and architects do not truly know what they need and it is our job to educate them...but in the end if it's not required why would they pay to have it done??ÿ Required topo survey 5k, Optional boundary survey 5k.?ÿ Guess what gets removed??ÿ Would they and the public benefit from a boundary survey??ÿ Of course.?ÿ
?ÿI am not on either side of this equation currently but have been in the past.
It really comes down to the municipal requirements and most municipalities have no clue what they really need.?ÿ I think each construction project should have a boundary and topo survey signed, sealed and stamped by a PLS.?ÿ With rare exceptions this never happens around here.
If the plans you are using: A) Don't have any Vertical Reference, and B) Only show hard shots to the tenth of a foot. Then C) I'm glad I'm not using those plans.?ÿ
Like said above, normally comparing a dozen common elevations, gives you a really good idea of what the intended datum was supposed to be without going round and round with the drawing creator.?ÿ?ÿ
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WA,
The problem we have here is the firms are multi-disciplined companies. They provide the surveying, engineering, and architectural services within the same office. Took 3 phone calls to get the info I needed for today's project. The Engineer assumed it was in the survey drawing, the surveyor assumed the engineer?ÿwould notice it was missing. They had located a monument just 100ft north of the project and used that for a BM. But it never showed on any drawings.?ÿ
?ÿWA,
The problem we have here is the firms are multi-disciplined companies. They provide the surveying, engineering, and architectural services within the same office. Took 3 phone calls to get the info I needed for today's project. The Engineer assumed it was in the survey drawing, the surveyor assumed the engineer?ÿwould notice it was missing. They had located a monument just 100ft north of the project and used that for a BM. But it never showed on any drawings.?ÿ
Well that is just poor management on all fronts from the design team.?ÿ I fit into this category, not the poor management part but the multi-discipline part.?ÿ There is not a set of plans that leaves this office without me reviewing them.?ÿ?ÿ
...
I don't give contractors my control points (ever) or release cad files to anyone unless it's been agreed upon before hand with the owner. I also don't set control points for contractors. I get too many calls from people who tell me they priced their project on getting my information to do their job, I typically also gave a proposal to do the same work and I refuse to cut my own throat to provide you with my job...
I've recently been bit by this also, sorta.?ÿ ?ÿWe did a full commercial site plan, designed with 3D model, and the project owner contacted me the week before his contractor was to start excavation, and he expected me to hand over the "drawing" to the contractor, so the contractor could hire a 3rd party "model builder" to provide the contractor machine guidance.
So, while we were planning on the construction stakeout work, the client cried and cried and cried until I gave in, not wanting to sour the milk for future work.?ÿ ?ÿ Had the project owner been upfront about him needing the model, I would have included it in the original scope and price.?ÿ?ÿ
While not exactly the same problem as the OP, it gets to the same theme:?ÿ 3rd party layout crews (PLS or not, Button pushers or not,) expecting to make a quick buck based on the original surveyors work, expecting the "CAD" file.
I think the vertical datum should be noted on the plans.
I think our purpose in developing a Topographic map is NOT to make some other surveyor's life easy when it comes to future phases of a project, unless agreed to at the onset of the job.
Remember, not a single member of this profession is doing it for fun.?ÿ We are doing it to put food on our families' tables.?ÿ This is a for-profit venture.
"Had the project owner been upfront about him needing the model, I would have included it in the original scope and price.?ÿ "
Around here the project is sent out to bid. Therefore the project owners do not know what contractors will be awarded the project at the time the topo survey is ordered. It often takes up to a year or more to get from the topo to construction. Some contractors don't use machine control. There should be enough information on the paper drawings to build the project. Surveyors, Engineers, and Architects are using CAD to prepare plans with less dimensions and annotations than 20 years ago. Many project plans don't have enough information, but the CAD files do. This is why a BIM project requires everyone to work with and be accountable for the CAD file. I like BIM construction projects, where no one is with-holding information from others.
Those Surveyors that are holding back information (while trying to hold onto the work) are actually pushing the work away from themselves. If you make to contractors and owners job difficult, they will find someone else to work with them.
On the other hand, to provide commercial surveying services, not contained in the contract, for free, would be unethical and possibly illegal.?ÿ It looks like a bribe to garner next phase of project if initiated by the surveyor; looks like theft of proprietary data if initiated by developer or contractor.?ÿ
You think you are having trouble with the previous surveyor, so I can understand your sentiments.?ÿ However, this problem is a business decision, made usually by the developer, to take the lowest bid for a certain phase without regard (or with a certain strategy to get something for nothing) to the overall project costs.
I have no sympathy for the developer.?ÿ If they want the 2k proposal from someone else v. my 10k, they should know (being sophisticated parties, and presumably having contracts to compare) they will get what they pay for.?ÿ The contractors certainly know and cuss a storm up when the developer does that, because they know they're now going to have all kinds of problems, cost overruns, delays, etc.
Were I in your shoes, I would explain to the developer that they must pay for the data requested, unless it was provided for in the contract.?ÿ And there does need to be a written release authorization if the data is not public data, otherwise the original surveyor is breech of state rules on professional misconduct.
Of course one way to deal with it would be MTS at the state level.?ÿ In that case certain omissions from a proposal would not be allowed, so would not be an option for the developer.?ÿ Of course that might not be great for your business model:)?ÿ Or maybe it would, I don't know.
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Of course one way to deal with it would be MTS at the state level.?ÿ
MTS?
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