Yes exactly. I was fortunate enough to fall. back asswards into a profession I love and am bummed others don’t feel the same way. I will say when I ask my boss the right question I see a glean in his eye and hopefully he remembers his long extinguished fire. 10 hours a day behind a computer and 1000‘s of emails a day ain’t good for ya. We are animals after all.
In reading your post, questions come to mind. Are you speaking of individuals only in your crew or are you concerned with multiple crews? The answer to that question can make a difference.
It seems that you have one guy who is a grunt but is short. Then you speak of the woodworker who sounds terrain challenged, followed by the guy who is boisterous, doesn't interact well with clients, and doesn't care for the clients who put food on his table. All of these things can be frustrating as a Crew Chief but, in the end, you are the person responsible for the performance of the crew collectively and the data that is collected.
Each person that you mention has strengths and weaknesses, for that matter, we all do. To be an effective leader, you have to find a way to capitalize on their strengths and help them improve in their weak areas.
You mention that you are not in a management position and lack authority. To a certain extent, that is true, in other ways, maybe not so much. Your job is to supervise those working underneath you and assure that you are providing quality data. Fine tuning your crew(s), to the maximum extent possible, falls under your responsibilities.
If you are trying to work with these people to help them improve their performance and are not seeing any positive results, then, it's time to go to your superiors and let them deal with the issues, how they see fit. What you say to those working under you, and how you say it, can make all the difference in the world, especially is others are there to hear it. Dale Carnagie wrote a book entitled "How to win friends and influence people". It is available in paperback for $20 or less on Amazon. I would suggest that you read the book as it will surely make you more effective in communicating with some people and motivating them.
If all else fails, there is always an opportunity for you to seek a better situation but you will always find yourself working with people of varying strengths, weaknesses and physical abilities.
Thank you , Chris. They do have their strengths and weaknesses (as do I) and I feel I do a good job at getting good work out of them. We have a great rapport. I would easily have a drink or two with them. In my experience it takes a certain type of weirdo to be a surveyor (no offense) and it is a rare blend of characteristics. Having and handful but not all of these characteristics is still valuable.
Staying in a spot where you are stagnating your career is not worthwhile unless you are just working a job.
If, however, your goal is not to just cash the next paycheck, but to build a career, then move to the next challenge.
When I finally moved on, it definitely helped that I had stayed in one place for 20 years, and had progressive (but slow) growth throughout, and it was easy and very low risk. I also had a low monetary reward. (My experience was top notch and the company was great, other than $$$.)
What I missed was the chance to see how other professionals worked, how other organizations approached challenges, and the results of other cultures. Also, with lateral moves, I could have significantly compressed the income growth curve.
That said, if you are near your 8 years in and want to have a single source reference for your experience and want a place where you are the big fish and place to comfortably study while you get your PLS, I get it. But, as soon as you apply for the PLS test, I would recommend sending out your resume.
When you get your PLS, I advise you to start looking and set a deadline for yourself to find a position elsewhere. Your existing company will have difficulty moving you from a position where you are a rockstar and a top producer to a position where you might be the lowest producer.
Hiring you for new position, that company will see only your upside potential, and they will stretch you. The old company will have to look at both your upside in the new position, and the downside of losing you from your old position.
This is why it can be difficult for high performers to move forward in a career like ours. Lateral moves to different companies can break that friction.
My liability for anyone following this advice is limited to what you paid for it.
Like you, I have worked in management positions in a hand full of different companies and have experienced the good, bad and ugly. Those experiences were instrumental in having me experience what works and what doesn't work. I think that those experiences make us more rounded and better equipped to figure out how to approach any given situation.
And, write the SOP. Do it while studying. Keep it. It will a tool you can refine and use as you move forward.
Honestly, if I was hiring someone, a manual they wrote and their explanation of how they implemented the SOP's with training and accountability would be a bigger selling point than a license.
I guess then crux of the discussion is do I stay were I’m comfortable, valuable, compensated pretty well but not getting my professional needs met or do I jump ship and find the old timer or different company who will teach me the art of boundary resolution. I would guess my employers are pretty determined to retain me so maybe I just suck it up get paid. I do have mouths to feed after all.
I've been surveying for 41 years now, licensed for 31. I love what I do and the people I work with. There are close to 30 people on my staff, every one of them has my personal cell number and knows that they are free to contact me 24/7.
I love mentoring, perhaps that is because of the great mentors that I had in my formative years. Teaching, for them, was as inspiring as it now is to me.
I love getting those afterhours calls from one of my people saying, hey, we came across this today, what do you think? Those are the kind of teaching opportunities where my first question is always, "what do you think and how do you think that you should handle it?". This gives them the opportunity to let me listen to their conclusions and ideas on how proceed before I explain to them what I like about what they have to say or explain to them the correct way to proceed and the reasons behind my approach. It's almost a rewarding experience for both of us.
What the "crux" of the conversation really is revolves on where you see yourself in the future. You clearly have put in the effort to obtain your LSIT but are not getting the support that you need to take that to the finish line. Money can't buy happiness and it's my opinion that if you are not getting what you need to succeed, it's time to go somewhere else to a place willing to give you the boost that you need to thrive. If that entails a pay cut, look at it as a temporary setback.
You describe where you are at as a run and gun type shop with poor QA/QC. Ask yourself if you want your professional reputation associated with that type of work when you become licensed.
On the road to where I currently am, I have jumped ship on a number of occasions for opportunities of advancement and to be exposed to different management styles. I think that those changes were essential in seeing what works, what doesn't work and learning different ways to do things to figure out what works best.
I understand that it's a tough call to make but you staying or leaving is not going to make or break that shop. If you stay, things will not likely change, if you leave, they probably still won't change but your circumstances will, most likely for the better.
I'm going to sound like the grouchy old guy all the kids complain about (probably true), but:
You will not change people's entrenched attitudes towards their jobs long term by keeping morale up or inspiring them. At best, you will have a feel good moment before things go back to the way they were before your inspiring action.
If the your fellow crew mates are not interested in implementing what you consider to be "best practices", as the crew chief it is up to you to simply tell the rest of the crew this is how we will be doing this procedure. If your boss decides that is not the best practice, he can tell you an alternate method that he requires. In the field, the crew chief makes the calls as long as they don't override the licensee's instructions.
I make sure to get in there and do the difficult work to show them how it’s done and that I am a part of the crew as well.
That is expected as you are a part of the crew even if you are in charge of the crew. Acting otherwise would be an indicator that you consider yourself to not be a part of the crew. If they respect that or not is out of your control, but their view on you doing work as a member of the crew should not be a consideration of why you are pitching in on the difficult tasks.
But
at the end of the day the quality of the data is on me.
No, it isn't. The licensee in responsible charge is responsible for the quality of the data. If he/she is not providing you with the appropriate resources (people, equipment, time, training) to obtain quality data, you can only do as well as the resources you have. It is on the licensee to review your data and make sure it is correct and acceptable. If it isn't, then the licensee needs to figure out how to address the matter and provide resources to achieve the expected quality of data.
It doesn’t help that our boss is apathetic and I most likely care about the end result more than him. I guess I can’t expect everyone to have the enthusiasm for the profession that I do.
Your statement may be 100% accurate, but it reads as one of the frequently incorrect ideas of youth. People express their enthusiasm in a variety of ways and support for a profession comes in many different forms. Within the licensees I know, I can think of a few people who are always proselytizing the religion of surveying like they were being broadcast on a Sunday morning church service, there are others who quietly work behind the scenes at the state level to get things done, and yet others who serve their local community as the main licensed surveyor for their community with no 'service' at the state level. They all have respect and passion for the profession, they are just different people who express their support of / enthusiasm for the profession in different ways.
What you see as apathetic could simply be experience of having been there done that combined with a more low key personality. Or, it could be a mistaken belief that you know more about what the intended end result is/should be than your boss does. I have both seen and been the young person with just enough experience to think I am more vested in the end result than the person in charge. One example, that ties in with another statement you have made about your boss, is a time when I was mistaken about a boss I had in my early days not visiting job sites. Turns out that a majority of sites he would go by and check either after hours or when the crew was not around. I was not aware of that until years later. You may be correct in stating your boss doesn't visit any of the sites. But if it is an assumption, then you could be very wrong as well.
Also, different people 'teach' differently. Some employers specifically set aside time to formally teach while others allow free reign with experience and then provide guidance as needed. You have indicated that you are able to ask questions of your boss. You have also indicated he is incapable of teaching. Yet only working at this company you have progressed from no experience to passing the SIT exam. It is unlikely that you were not taught a pretty fair amount in order to pass the first exam.
... but I have really established myself as a critical part of the survey
office and quite frankly they would be in a tough spot without me.
Yes, it is difficult to attract people into the profession, but it is done all the time. Very few people serve a critical role to a company such that they are irreplaceable. If you were to decide to go elsewhere looking for the mentoring you want, the company will likely continue. While it is nice to have loyalty to the company, at most you owe them a reasonable notice before leaving.
I am considering joining CLSA to a mentor who can take me to the
next level. I am dying to meet an old guy who loves surveying to show me
the ropes. Oh well time to ask for another raise…
I would absolutely encourage you to join CLSA as participation in your state society can allow for some useful professional contacts. More than likely they have a technician or associate membership level. Local chapter meetings can provide a wealth of learning opportunities just by listening to the discussions. Like this website, you would have more exposure to a variety of views on surveying practice. As you develop camaraderie with the members, you would be more comfortable seeking their guidance when you have questions.
To echo what Mark has already indicated - there is often a very valuable learning experience in a position that you may not see the mentoring you were hoping for. One of the places I worked provided some very key insight into what NOT to do on the business side of things. It wasn't something that was purposely being taught, just something gleaned from observation.
Edit to add: Just read your response on the traverse closure post and if you have characterized your bosses attitude towards the survey process correctly then there seems more likely to be a concern as to the mentoring you are getting. Might be well worthwhile to look to other sources of professional growth!
It may just be that your boss's boss recognizes his limitations and is just waiting for one of his underlings to break through, get licensed, and move up in the organization. So I wouldn't necessarily jump ship right now. Neither would I hang on out of some unwarranted sense of loyalty. But definitely check around and see which way the wind in blowing, both inside and outside the organization.
I will say when I ask my boss the right question I see a glean in his eye and hopefully he remembers his long extinguished fire.
That's funny. I've noticed something like that when I talk to old timers too, especially if they've spent a lot of years working in their own little bubble. When an opportunity to share what they've learned pops up their eyes kind of light up.
Contact me if you are serious about boundary work. I work throughout the bay area with the great attorneys working on boundary litigation. I've spent quite a lot of money on employees education where I have paid for university classes. I also have provided a commuter car for project surveyors. Full benefits, bonuses and profit sharing available.
I've mentored many people to obtain their PLS.
I also believe in having a project surveyor who is involved in the project from the beginning through the filing of the map.
We do a lot of historic research to enable us to retrace the appropriate boundary lines.
Thx
L
You have been given some of the best wisdom in this thread. I mean some great advice.
Here is some old sayings to help you remember.
Lead follow or get the hell out of the way
Lead by example
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink
The grass always seems greener on the other side but weeds and briars are there also
Influence that’s one word that is leadership (how you do it is the question)
I think no matter what you do you are going to be successful. You have the right attitude and mindset it shows in what you are trying to do. You didn’t make it all about yourself. You made it about others. Keep that throughout life. Even when it gets hard. You will be fine. I had to make a very difficult decision not long ago on a job change. It was difficult not so much my work environment with my team but for family reasons and to aid in my career growth. My old boss has still called on some jobs to make sure they understood the skeletons in the closet and my old crew chiefs still stay in touch. When you do what you have done and tried to help those under you get better at what they do they will remember that years from now. You will be licensed or managing somewhere and need help. It will be one of those you mentored that will help you. I have seen it all throughout life not just surveying but in everything.
@surveylife Whether you stay or go somewhere else, you'll probably want to stay on good terms and get help completing your licensure from everyone along the way. For your state licensing, you'll probably need letters verifying your experience. CLSA (or any state society) can offer a wealth of information, education, networking, job offers, and related aspects. It sounds like you're doing a great job and will do well continuing there or moving somewhere else. Keep up the great work!
