Thread of River

Title says "Thread" and post says "center."?ÿ Are they the same thing??ÿ I thought the thread was the line along which the last water would flow if it dried up, and that may not be the center between the banks.

Bill93 - read up on thread of river vs thalweg of river.

Posted by: briniker

Bill93 - read up on thread of river vs thalweg of river.

I believe that depends on the jurisdiction: statute and case law, @hillsidesurveyor where is this? I think it matters.

The land is in Iowa.

All I have been able to find so far is that the rule of thumb is to generally follow the thread or center of the river, but if the thalweg differs from the thread by a large portion then the line may follow the thalweg.

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So about as clear as mud.

I don't know anything about Iowa state law, but generally the thalweg is the boundary within navigable rivers, it is the center of the deepest or main navigable channel. Thread and centerline are different. Thread, like someone else said is where the last of the water would be, centerline is usually the medial line, but other definitions have been used. See the BLM manual for how to calculate the medial line.?ÿ

Are you sure the island formed out of the river, and its not just a new channel?

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Is it an island with vegetation or a sandbar that has formed between the original banks that will be underwater as the water level rises.

Soil will accumulate where there is a rock formation across a river and create shoals and there can be a channel for water to flow or in other instances the shoals will serve as an emergency spillway for the river.

What you describe as the island, one side will carry the main flow of the river and that would probably be considered the thalwag.

The other side would probably be where the water is flowing slower and sediment is growing in size.

Locally there is an abundant supply of sandy loam along our rivers and there is constant changing in the size and locations of sandbars.

A Harris,

The islands are sandbars that would be covered with water in the event of a flood when the river rises, although one of the sandbars is nearly an acre in size.

If the Islands are truly in the middle, then owners on each side of the river would seem to each own half according to this:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10513768138294353483&q=thread+of+the+stream&hl=en&as_sdt=4,16

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Great citation Duane.
OP said "non meandered river" so maybe it is not Navigable ...

scratching my head over here

Posted by: Duane Frymire

If the Islands are truly in the middle, then owners on each side of the river would seem to each own half according to this:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10513768138294353483&q=thread+of+the+stream&hl=en&as_sdt=4,16

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This was a navigable river. The same reasoning would apply if the correct boundary was the medial line, but not if it was the thread.

I saw that.?ÿ But the rules in the case should be the same whether state or private ownership of the bed.?ÿ At least that's my theory:)?ÿ Didn't come across a private owned bed of stream case in my quick search.

Unfortunately, like many things in law, there are conflicting definitions.?ÿ I've looked around a bit and find "thread of stream" defined as midpoint between banks, position of fastest current, and deepest part.

Iowa seems to use "thread" as meaning center.

Some cases are at:

https://www.casemine.com/search/us?q=thread+of+a+stream&sort=&motionType=&motionOutcome=&motiontyp=all&court=Iowa&court=Iowa+Ct.+App.

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Encyclopedia of Iowa Law, 1914, p. 585 (pdf p. 610) found at:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53ab0c83e4b000cf784287fe/t/5aa3d6688165f533f6fdc8c7/1520686698543/4401+Table+of+Contents.pdf

says that if the stream is not navigable, the boundary is the thread of the stream, except if it was meandered in the GLO survey, then the boundary is the edge of the water (high or low water not specified).?ÿ If it is navigable the boundary is the high water mark.?ÿ ...?ÿ By the thread of the stream is meant the middle of the current.

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https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/147/1/case.html?ÿ?ÿ Iowa v Illinois says that "thread of the stream" is the middle of the channel, and if more than one, the middle of the most navigated one.?ÿ Then it confuses things by saying

"Where a navigable river forms the boundary of conterminous states, the middle of the channel or thalweg is generally taken as the line of separation between the two states,

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The fact that Iowa and Nebraska had differing definitions was a factor in the Carter Lake case.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KwVuDQAAQBAJ

This site?ÿ http://nebraskasurveyor.com/rip-thr.html?ÿ?ÿ quotes cases, which seem to equate middle to thalweg, which seems to be a minority position among definitions.

The thread or center of a channel, as the term is employed, must be the line which would give the owners on either side access to the water, whatever its stage might be, and particularly at its lowest flow. Monument Farms, Inc. v. Daggett, 2 Neb. App. 988, 520 N.W.2d 556 (1994); State v. Ecklund, 147 Neb. 508, 23 N.W.2d 782 (1946). In other words, the thread of the stream is the deepest groove or trench in the bed of a river channel, the last part of the bed to run dry. Where the thread of a stream is the boundary between estates and that stream has two channels, the thread of the main channel is the boundary between the estates. See also Hardt v. Orr, 142 Neb. 460, 6 N.W.2d 589 (1942).

Neilsen v Stratbucker, Iowa 1982, discusses islands

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914c3d6add7b049347c96f2

as does Jeffry v Grosvener, Iowa 1968

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914c814add7b049347e786f

US v Wilson, 1981 (islands in Missouri River)

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914918badd7b0493458a2c8

and Mather v State, Iowa 1972,

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59149767add7b049345f2e08

I hope something in this list is useful to you.?ÿ There are more cases to be found on that site.

Thank you for all of the replies.

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I have reviewed the sited cases and searched for other cases on google scholar. I was unable to find a similar case to this situation dealing with a non-navigable river. There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer either way, but it appears that if the islands are sandbars and are not permanent that the dividing line would remain at the center of the river.

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Posted by: hillsidesurveyor

Thank you for all of the replies.

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I have reviewed the sited cases and searched for other cases on google scholar. I was unable to find a similar case to this situation dealing with a non-navigable river. There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer either way, but it appears that if the islands are sandbars and are not permanent that the dividing line would remain at the center of the river.

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I think you are right, but now you have to figure out what the "center" is under Iowa law. If the stream was the boundary back to patent it will be federal law and the medial line. If not, do some more reaearch. .?ÿ?ÿ

default to me has been:

In other words, the thread of the stream is the deepest groove or trench in the bed of a river channel, the last part of the bed to run dry.

Posted by: Peter Ehlert

default to me has been:

In other words, the thread of the stream is the deepest groove or trench in the bed of a river channel, the last part of the bed to run dry.

That's a good definition of thread. It ?ÿillustrates why the medial line is usual used in larger creeks/rivers. If the river is bigger than what can easily he waded or there are multiple channels?ÿ finding the thread becomes very difficult. For example, try proving an avulision of the thread between stable OHW lines in order to show the ownership of a new island.?ÿ

Surveyors often shy away from the medial line because they have to survey to lines to find it and they don't understand the math, but in the long run it works better, except for the smallest creeks.

Where I'm from in NE Ohio, we have one area, about a mile and a half long, where the descriptions read "to the high bank of the Cuyahoga River". Most areas areas this applies to areas where there is an existing gorge. But in some areas "high bank" is totally subjective. I've never seen it anywhere else in the state.