Saw this and all I could think of is why is the Principal Meridian giving you the stinkeye.?ÿ
It could be a number of things.
First, field guys, some are great, some terrible, and some in between.?ÿ
Assuming that you fall into the top segment, it could be that this PM keeps blowing estimates and isn??t accepting this fact.?ÿ But it could also be that his estimates are fine, but they keep getting shot down and revised by his supervisor.?ÿ Or maybe when he estimates accurately, you don??t get the job because he??s getting under-bid by the competition.?ÿ He could be feeling pressure himself that you??re not aware of.
Depending where you??re located, it could be a tough fence walk, pricing so you get enough work to keep crews busy, and also trying to keep within the budget, while doing the job correctly.
Not saying in your case, but this stink eye you speak of, could be because the PM sees crews coming in at 7:35-7:50, for a 7:30 start time, then there??s bringing the equipment out, getting coffee, bathroom breaks, facebook checking??..and they??re on the road, maybe by 8:30??..and back by 3:00, but their timesheets have 8hrs on the project.?ÿ
And before you get on the PM for allowing this, sometimes it??s not his call if he??s not backed up by upper management, turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior.?ÿ No one wants to be the bad guy sometimes, especially if it??s a well-liked, while under-producing long-tenured employee who may just play golf with one of the owners.
It also could very well be this PM not knowing or remembering what it's like and what things take in the field.?ÿ Some PM??s were terrible field surveyors, but are good PM??s, while some are terrible at both.
If something took a lot more field time than I??d estimated, I??ll sometimes talk with the chief or crew to find out what caused this.?ÿ I??m not necessarily pinning it on them.?ÿ I figure things take what they take, and sometimes they take more than they should.?ÿ Sometimes I make a bad estimate.?ÿ Sometimes the field crew have their heads up their ass.?ÿ Sometimes it??s miscommunication on the scope.?ÿ It??s not always finger pointing, but with some it is.
If you know you??re good, and if you respect the PM, then talk with him about it.?ÿ It helps both of you in the long run.
Seeing threads like this one reminds me how thankful I am that I got away from the corporate grind! I much prefer my smaller (less than a dozen people) firm.
Great perspective, imo.
I've really only run into this sort of situation when I've worked for larger multi-disciplinary engineering companies.?ÿ And even then it only seems to happen when the PMs are trying to find filler work between the bigger transportation or utility projects.?ÿ When you go from working on a 4 million dollar highway project to a 3500 dollar boundary survey with the overhead that a large company has then I'm guessing it's like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.?ÿ I would expect most PMs to recognize this and be able to see the bigger picture, but I've noticed some have no problem throwing the field crew under the bus to save their own rear end.
@bstrand?ÿ
It's a great lesson for how not to do something.
I've got lots of those lessons, and the opposite too.
Just seems like the not do lessons always have more impact for some reason.
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[?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]?ÿ ?ÿthe PM sees crews coming in at 750, for a 7:30 start time, then there??s bringing the equipment out, getting coffee, bathroom breaks, facebook checking?ÿ [?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]
PMs beware you don't step over the line if you're a union shop.?ÿ I was used to walking into the office precisely @ the 7:30 start time and on the road by 7:45-7:50ish.?ÿ Imagine my surprise as a new hire to arrive @ 7:30 and be told I'm late;?ÿ this outfit's protocol was the trucks leave the yard @ 7:30 sharp, which meant you had to show up @ 7:00ish to load up and attend to pre-launch duties.?ÿ The Party Chiefs had to show up even earlier for their paperwork activities.?ÿ
Well, a new hire filed a complaint with the Shop Steward which was quickly adjudicated.?ÿ Upper management was shocked to learn of this PM's policy.?ÿ Paid time starts when you walk in the door and are performing work in preparation for departure.?ÿ The stinker for the PM was a conservative estimate of the unpaid labor performed over the last year (when the PM came onboard and instituted his "I wanna hear truck engines fire up @ 7:30") and everybody got back pay which was about $1,200 per crew; over $12,000 total.?ÿ Ouch for the PM!
1. Is your PM a surveyor??ÿ If not, convince him/her that you need to be involved in the estimating.
2. Hold your crew accountable for their work while being fair and compassionate about field conditions and unforeseen issues that may cause a crew to go over their estimated time schedule.
3. Be fair with your crews and give praise when warranted.?ÿ
@midsouth-surveyor?ÿ
I had a significant problem with time estimates on completing various projects where the PMs, not being surveyors but engineers, for scheduling purposes, were effectively pulling numbers out of thin air and organizing our schedules and deadlines around those estimates. Rather than giving/getting the stink eye, we sat down and talked through the problem and I offered to take over doing the estimates for them so that those numbers were based a little more on reality. Worked out well for everyone. We unpacked the problem and came up with a solution that worked. When we do encounter significant delays, we communicate that up the chain and adjust our schedule accordingly. Maintaining good moral is important to productivity and stink eye at any level is just counter productive.?ÿ
At the last firm I worked at, most of the PMs were clueless as to estimating survey budgets. We had one guy who would tell you he had a 8 hour budget for 10 hours of work, not including the 3 hours of drive time - one way. He was always complaining about how much time we took. I finally offered him the GPS and DC and said "here you go, now you don't have anyone to blame but yourself" and drove off site. He called me half an hour later, sheepishly asked me to come complete the task. I obliged, but only after making him promise that he would not set survey budgets without input from the survey staff.
I can't really blame the guy for his unrealistic attitude. I had been working there for 3-4 months before I finally ran into the COO of the company in the firm headquarters. Upon being introduced, his first words to me were "You surveyors are f***ing expensive!", to which I replied that you get what you pay for. Needless to say, I was happy to move onto a much better and smaller firm a few years later. Working at firms where your skill, knowledge, and license are all looked down upon is never worth more than learning what not to put up with from colleagues.
?ÿ
That's interesting in the different fields that I've worked in I've never had a project manager have any kind of work authority over me whatsoever. Only my direct supervisor, or something up the COC.
I think that problem in the case there right there you just explained there was gross negligence by letting someone who really wasn't competent in charge of people basically being a bully.?ÿ they're lucky they got away with just $12,000. IBM lost 75 million dollars fighting the fight where people had to work at least five to ten per-cent more but didn't get paid for it for about 10 or 15 years. Statute of limitations only goes for 2 years but they lost 75 million dollars that was a really big lesson to learn.
I can't really blame the guy for his unrealistic attitude. I had been working there for 3-4 months before I finally ran into the COO of the company in the firm headquarters. Upon being introduced, his first words to me were "You surveyors are f***ing expensive!"
I don't see how anyone with a functioning brain couldn't understand, and accept, how a team of surveyors and their gear are far more expensive than an engineer or designer sitting at their desk running Civil 3D.
The real "f***king expensive" cost is the overhead from corporate and, to a lesser extent, middle management. Rate multipliers can be pretty eye-opening...
@midsouth-surveyor?ÿ
1. Is your PM a surveyor? If not, convince him/her that you need to be involved in the estimating.
All the PMs I've done work for so far have been licensed surveyors, yep.
@rover83?ÿ
The real "fking expensive" cost is the overhead from corporate and, to a lesser extent, middle management. Rate multipliers can be pretty eye-opening...
Yeah, I think this stuff is what the actual problem is.
I remember having an interesting conversation with a supervisor at one place I worked.?ÿ He made the comment that a major financial burden comes from long time employees-- he kind of pointed a finger at engineers in particular, but I'm sure tenured surveyors aren't much different.?ÿ He called these guys whales and described how their pay goes up every year but their productivity plateaus well before they retire.?ÿ And yeah I'm sure there's something to be said about the experience they bring, but I think even experience has its limits.?ÿ Anyway, the implication was that if we could get rid of some of the whales then projects that weren't profitable before would now be making money.
I would like to be a PM or at least be able to see how the numbers work behind this stuff because it doesn't make sense to me how I can spend 8 hours (hell, even 10 or 12 hours; 1 day) at a $4000 project, for example, and destroy ALL of the profit on the project.?ÿ There has got to either be a ridiculous amount of unnecessary people involved in the process or the multiplier has got to be so high that it's impossible to make money on anything that isn't a pork-barrel government project.
The thing that is most ridiculous about it all is how they come after the 1 guy in the entire food chain that is sweating their ass off in the middle of summer hacking through blackberries getting cut up and stung by bees while trying to avoid getting skin cancer.?ÿ It's like really, there isn't someone else with their finger in the pie that doesn't need to be there?
I think it's possible to run into a bad PM anywhere though.
