Good point - local support from a knowledgeable dealer is probably the most important thing to consider unless you're already intimately familiar with the system.
This is truly never ending topic!
Leica feels much better and optics is just outstanding. I must have to stress the fact that Leica total stations don't stray off target a lot when left on (back site swing).
However, I personally use Trimble S8. Most of my work is associated with high precision and Trimble S8 handles these tasks in an excellent manner. Leica TS30 can obviously compete with S8 in these kind of tasks. Have used TS30 many times, but still prefer Trimble S8. Everything comes down to costs.
A lot of sites I came across, had very young surveyors working on(fresh graduates). My experience suggests that young people learn how to use Trimble much faster than Leica. Of course it depends on a person. If you had some exposure to Leica instruments in the past it might be not so difficult to learn how to use a new model. Still Leica has more quirks than Trimble. 🙂
Just a few words on performance.
I think Trimble is a little bit faster to set up and the DR is a little bit better on Trimble.
Accuracy wise, both brands are pretty much the same. Leica TS30 is as good as Trimble S8.
Lock on both total stations can be annoying, only Leica can have its own optical center which makes prism constants an issue. Leica points at the center of a target which is very convenient.
Overall, I would recommend buying Trimble S8. This total station will last forever and you will not be disappointed 100% guarantee.
Very interesting topic... I would like to share some of my views.
The operating costs are related to the instrument's functioning speed, set up speed and duration of service. Here is a small comparison of Leica TS30 and Trimble S8:
Leica TS30 is better in terms of operating cost, measurement is much faster, but locking is a bit slower. Overall, it depends on the way you work;
- Reliability: Leica TS30 is better;
- Accuracy (to prism and reflectorless) – target accuracies are pretty much the same for both models, but Leica TS30 has slightly better measurement accuracy;
- Locking, re-acquisition time and tracking capability – Trimble S8 is better in this case.
- On board software / openness to 3rd party software – both Leica and Trimble are compatible with most surveying software packages, but I think Trimble software is easier to use.
- Duration of service: would say that both models are the same in this case;
I would recommend buying Leica TS30 if there was a choice between S8 and TS30. If we compare Leica TS15 and Trimble S8, I would probably go for S8.
Yesterday, I had an opportunity to test both Leica TS15 and Trimble S8. Here are my observations:
Leica seems to be slightly better in terms of accuracy, but Trimble S8 was much more productive. Some general measurements were completed much faster using S8.
- Reliability: Leica wins. I got to this conclusion by taking into account the following aspects – operating temperatures, materials, various distances (performance of both total stations in terms of shooting different angles of incidence, both horizontal and vertical).
- Accuracy: Leica TS15 wins, but it is a really close call. Hard to say really. For some surveys with tight tolerances Leica seems to perform much better. I have done same sets of angles. Leica's results indicate smaller discrepancies in each set of tests. Trimble S8 had slightly bigger discrepancies.
- On-board software: Trimble is much more competitive in this area. Trimble was much better at locking, tracking capability, reaquisition and ease of use. Solid win.
- Operating cost: Well general tasks are completed much quicker using S8, hence it is reasonable to assume that Trimble S8 would be much more cost efficient to use. Using Leica TS15 would consume more time for the same tasks.
Overall, I prefer Sokia instruments as I have written previously, but it was quite an interesting experience to compare both Leica TS15 and Trimble S8.
I have used mostly Topcon total stations and would like to say few words about them.
1. Topcon equipment can work really well in high temperatures – I have worked in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Weather conditions were extreme. Normally, temperatures would get to over 40 celsius.
2. Materials used to manufacture their instruments are high quality. Can withstand high temperature fluctuations and performs really well in extreme environments.
3. Measurement errors / discrepancies are very low. I can say that Topcon total stations are as accurate as Trimble instruments (didn't use Leica's very much).
4. Operating system, user menu is as good as Trimble's. Very easy to learn and use. Again, I can not compare it with Leica's because I din't use many leica products.
5. QS series total stations have very nice non prism EDM ~ 2,000 m non prism measurements.
> This is truly never ending topic!
> Leica feels much better and optics is just outstanding. I must have to stress the fact that Leica total stations don't stray off target a lot when left on (back site swing).
> However, I personally use Trimble S8. Most of my work is associated with high precision and Trimble S8 handles these tasks in an excellent manner. Leica TS30 can obviously compete with S8 in these kind of tasks. Have used TS30 many times, but still prefer Trimble S8. Everything comes down to costs.
>
> A lot of sites I came across, had very young surveyors working on(fresh graduates). My experience suggests that young people learn how to use Trimble much faster than Leica. Of course it depends on a person. If you had some exposure to Leica instruments in the past it might be not so difficult to learn how to use a new model. Still Leica has more quirks than Trimble. 🙂
>
> Just a few words on performance.
>
> I think Trimble is a little bit faster to set up and the DR is a little bit better on Trimble.
> Accuracy wise, both brands are pretty much the same. Leica TS30 is as good as Trimble S8.
> Lock on both total stations can be annoying, only Leica can have its own optical center which makes prism constants an issue. Leica points at the center of a target which is very convenient.
>
> Overall, I would recommend buying Trimble S8. This total station will last forever and you will not be disappointed 100% guarantee.
What about Leica TS15 vs Trimble S8 ? Any thoughts ?
Johan, could you make few comments on specific SOKIA total station models ?
Hello everybody, my name is Karl and I would like to express my opinion on this topic. My favorite total station is Leica Viva TS15. I have been working with this instrument for more than 2 years and I can say that this is the best robotic total station I have ever used / had. My working experience with other brands is limited, but I have worked with Trimble total stations.
I really like what Leica have done with user interface comparing TS15 to older TPS1200 / 1100 series. Graphical interfaces is absolutely fantastic. Very intuitive and very easy to use. It is much better comparing to TPS1200 series. It works perfectly in UG environment especially in combination with Surpac/MSO software.
On the downside, I constantly have problems with SD cards. I am not entirely sure it is total station's / controller's problem, but SD cards simply do not last (especially when used in robotic mode). My experience suggests that most SD cards last around 3 to 4 months. Also sinleshot reflectorless measurements seem to be a little bit slower than those on TPS1200 series (really not sure why).
I have used Trimble S6 and Trimble S3 in construction. My impression was quite positive – user interface was very user friendly (but not as good as Leica TS15 has). Sometimes I found Trimble S6 menu rather complicated to use. I had to got to 4 or 5 different layers of sub-menus in order to get the option I was looking for. A bit frustrating – really! Never had these kind of problems with Leica TS15. Of course, I have used Leica total station for as long as I remember, therefore I might be very much accustomed with their menu. Again, I would like to stress the fact that I did not use Trimble products that much. The only thing I really liked about Trimble S6 was the locking feature of this total station. It makes tracking so easy. Very big plus from my point of view.
In certain circumstances Trimble S6 might be preferred option. For example if you need instrument for earthworks or using it with GNSS receivers. If accuracy and / or precision is much more important then Leica TS15 would be my total station of choice. I would also advise to get the latest generation of instruments you can afford. There is a big difference between Leica TS15 and older TPS1200 models.
> Yesterday, I had an opportunity to test both Leica TS15 and Trimble S8. Here are my observations:
>
> Leica seems to be slightly better in terms of accuracy, but Trimble S8 was much more productive. Some general measurements were completed much faster using S8.
>
>
- >
- Reliability: Leica wins. I got to this conclusion by taking into account the following aspects – operating temperatures, materials, various distances (performance of both total stations in terms of shooting different angles of incidence, both horizontal and vertical).
> - Accuracy: Leica TS15 wins, but it is a really close call. Hard to say really. For some surveys with tight tolerances Leica seems to perform much better. I have done same sets of angles. Leica's results indicate smaller discrepancies in each set of tests. Trimble S8 had slightly bigger discrepancies.
> - On-board software: Trimble is much more competitive in this area. Trimble was much better at locking, tracking capability, reaquisition and ease of use. Solid win.
> - Operating cost: Well general tasks are completed much quicker using S8, hence it is reasonable to assume that Trimble S8 would be much more cost efficient to use. Using Leica TS15 would consume more time for the same tasks.
>
>
> Overall, I prefer Sokia instruments as I have written previously, but it was quite an interesting experience to compare both Leica TS15 and Trimble S8.
Johan, lots of useful info. Thanks for the post.
> ...On the downside, I constantly have problems with SD cards. I am not entirely sure it is total station's / controller's problem, but SD cards simply do not last (especially when used in robotic mode). My experience suggests that most SD cards last around 3 to 4 months.....
Are you using the military grade Leica brand SD cards? Ordinary consumer grade SD cards fail when used in temperatures much above 80°F and below 60°F. I found this out the hard way. The Leica cards are expensive, but cheaper than doing jobs twice.
> Are you using the military grade Leica brand SD cards? Ordinary consumer grade SD cards fail when used in temperatures much above 80°F and below 60°F.
I have a plain-Jane SanDisk SD card in my DC50. It was my daily-driver data collector for about 5 years, and I routinely operated it in temps ranging from 45° to 100° without issue. Maybe I just got lucky!
I own both Leica and Trimble total stations and would like to add few observations I have made over the years. Although, I must point out that I own Leica Viva TS15 and Trimble S6 (which is a bit old).
Leica has superior accuracy and is more reliable. Optics is better and ATR is better. It has smaller footprint for reflectorless measurements, and is much more configurable than Trimble S6. On the downside Leica needs LGO to fix the errors, while you can do it on-broad with Trimble.
Viva software has improved over the years, but still a lot of things can be done better (reference line and DXF stakeout as an example).
In my opinion Trimble has better software. It is much more convenient to use, and is more user friendly as somebody have mentioned previously. It is very handy when you are forced to use technicians for simple tasks.
My experience suggests that Trimble's EMD meets the requirements, but is not as accurate as Leica's. Angle measurements are pretty much the same. At least I did not notice any major differences between both brands.
It would be nice if Leica could add the option to set required level of standard deviation during reflector-less measurements. Not possible at the moment as far as I am aware.
Finally costs, if money is not an issue then perhaps I would use Leica TS30 for high accuracy measurements like control and monitoring. Leica TS15 for mining, design of tunnels (underground work) and design of structures / buildings in general. I would prefer to use Trimble for topographic and earthworks tasks primarily. Overall, I would probably recommend buying Trimble S8 if you can afford it.
Additionally, I think that as a professional surveyor you must know how to use any instrument. This is what separates real professionals from armatures. Therefore, it is a good idea to try to use different total stations - Sokia, Pentax, Leica, Trimble etc. Otherwise, you simply can not call yourself a professional.
> I have used mostly Topcon total stations and would like to say few words about them.
>
>
> 1. Topcon equipment can work really well in high temperatures – I have worked in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Weather conditions were extreme. Normally, temperatures would get to over 40 celsius.
>
> 2. Materials used to manufacture their instruments are high quality. Can withstand high temperature fluctuations and performs really well in extreme environments.
>
> 3. Measurement errors / discrepancies are very low. I can say that Topcon total stations are as accurate as Trimble instruments (didn't use Leica's very much).
>
> 4. Operating system, user menu is as good as Trimble's. Very easy to learn and use. Again, I can not compare it with Leica's because I din't use many leica products.
>
> 5. QS series total stations have very nice non prism EDM ~ 2,000 m non prism measurements.
Thanks for the post.
Want to add few more words. I think that people should stop comparing instruments with different specifications. I mean if we compare Leica 1” instrument with 5” Trimble there will be a difference, so lets stop comparing apples and oranges. They are different full stop!
There is no difference between Leica and Trimble apart from few minor things. Both are easy to use, what you are choosing is level of support and price. That is it! Nothing else... My final advice would be to choose robotic instrument. It will offer you more flexibility, save you time and money.
When we talk about used or second hand total stations we have to make sure that these are calibrated and taken care of before purchase. Otherwise you might have a problem on your hands (instead of a solution you were expecting). Check the age of a total station and make sure that model is still supported by the manufacturer. If equipment is in good condition, was really maintained and checked regularly then just go for it.
Thank everybody for their input to this discussion. This has been particularly informative to me as I am getting ready to upgrade my Trimble 5603. It has been a great instrument for the past 15 years but parts are getting hard to find. It hasn't needed many but it only takes the lack of one to shut you down! I assume almost everything has a reflectorless mode these days which is a must have for as-builts on some of these architectural wonders they build now. The one thing I like about the older Trimbles is that they are 12 volt & will run on any 12 volt power source. I have operated my 5603 on my truck battery numerous times. Weight is another factor. Nobody mentioned weight. It's not a problem as long as you can drive your truck to where you want to set up but some of the swamps I survey in require carrying equipment long distances over rough ground & through water. I am usually alone & a light instrument is a big plus. I hear the new instruments are much lighter. I did use a Sokkia recently (not a robot) but on this occasion I let my helper operate the gun as I had more important things to worry about. Doesn't Topcon own Sokkia? The Sokkia GPS we were using had "TOPCON" on it. It seemed to be a great little gun but I didn't like the tablet it used for data collection & to control the instrument. It would likely be an asset on a big construction site but in the woods where you are only turning a few angles, it's just 5 more pounds of junk to carry. Surveying software seems to be getting overly complicated. Of course, as already stated, it depends on what type of work you do. I don't collect thousands of points in a day & prefer to spend my time studying geodetic science or GPS as apposed to trying to figure out complicated software. The user friendly aspects of the Trimble instruments are very appealing, although my 5603 isn't particularly easy to use. Our state geodetic survey uses Trimble GPS.
I am looking for a relatively light instrument that does the basics well. I don't need a lot of bells & whistles. I'm gravitating to remote boundaries these days, although there isn't much in the way of surveying I haven't done. The jury is still out. There seems to be a number of great Robots to choose from. As always, any comments or tips will be greatly appreciated.
Since the original Topcon GTS-2, back in the 80s, we have had a lot number of Topcon, Leica, and Trimble instruments. For total stations we always seemed to fare better with Topcon workhorses primarily because of ruggedness, reliability and price. For robots, we used Leica and Trimble, and we found the S6 to be far superior. The S6 is fast, reliable, slick, quiet, and a pleasure to use.
I believe the best idea ever in GPS surveying was the Series 500 Leica GPS, but it is now gone (and wasn't as fast as the new stuff), but we have been using R8GNSS since they came out, and we have not had a single malfunction of any kind. TOUGH and GOOD and not buggy.
It seems that Topcon and Trimble have excellent beta testing for their instruments. At least that is our experience. There is nothing worse than getting a bad laser measurement, or a corrupt or intermingled data file. We had an accelerometer issue with the S6, and Trimble dove onto the solution and solved the heck out of it at astonishing speed.
All in all for us, and after doing a ton of surveying for almost 40 years, my own personal feeling is that Trimble has their act together on high-end stuff. Topcon's workhorses are also excellent. When we weigh the benefits and costs of Trimble, they seem to be most beneficial to us in long run even though first cost of Trimble is higher.
I often wonder why more of the GPS units don't just put the unit in a very small backpack and lighten up the pole. The units and batteries are so small now that they could almost fit on one's belt.
For data collectors, Trimble TCS series has been unbeatable, although I do not like them tying the firmware to one data collector. If TSC goes down and has to be replaced, they won't let you transfer the data collection software to a new unit.
For software, we find Carlson simply the best for us--by far, way to heck by far. I do wish they'd spend more time standardizing leader sizes, and some of the simpler things that have been irritating since day one with Carlson. I'd rather see them streamline their simple things than some of the latest bells and whistles that they continually add. Things like: Making the draw line in cogo command stick either on or off instead of being off. Making the point defaults stick. For example, when I start a new job to enter manual traverse, I'd like to see the line be on all the time per my last use setting. I'd also like it to default to not having to enter vertical angles, and things like that. If it would just stick and default to what I did last, that would be good. The leader size when doing special leaders is different from sizing the leader for a regular leader. Always seems inconsistent and confusing to me, although I must be sort of a dumb cad drafter.
My opinion only.
I don't want no green (stuff).
I was looking at the Geomax zoom 80. It looks like a Leica 1200 and priced right. I've never used one though.
John Giles, post: 335314, member: 57 wrote: I was looking at the Geomax zoom 80. It looks like a Leica 1200 and priced right. I've never used one though.
I have one and love it. If you want call me and we can talk 828-421-4919, Aaron.
The only robot I've used is a 2007 S6 with Access on a TSC2 and a TCU.
I run the calibration routines every few months when I have a cool morning with a 100 meter plus baseline setup.
It's very fast and accurate.
We use a passive target which works very well. I've gotten pretty good at joy sticking it back to the target with the guide lights on without needing to search. It will follow past a tree sometimes but it is hit and miss.
I've only used a Leica 1200 in non-robot mode. I prefer the Trinble instrument overall.
