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Test the new guy?

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(@absurveyor18548)
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So we hired a new guy a couple weeks agoƒ?? he keeps telling us he knows how to do stuff and ƒ??ready to be on his ownƒ?ƒ?? he has only worked with me a few times and another party chief the rest of the time, and we both agree that he is nowhere close to being a party chief or even doing things beyond Simple point staking. ?ÿHe is persistent about wanting to do things solo, is it wrong to send him on a task that is definitely beyond his capabilities as a reality check for him? ?ÿ

We still feel he is intelligent and a hard worker so far, just over confident. I donƒ??t want to redo work if it gets messed up, but if he gets there and tries to do something without calling to ask the questions, I guess thatƒ??s the lessons learned for all of us. ?ÿ

Thought??ÿ

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 4:22 pm
(@chris-bouffard)
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Don't test him and spend the time and effort to check him.  Let him sing his god given superior abilities to another employer.

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 4:33 pm
rover83
(@rover83)
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Ultimately I think it depends on their personality and the nature of your work relationship.

If you really want to keep this guy, I'd think carefully about testing him by throwing him to the wolves.

While it might indeed give him a reality check, I have found that Dunning-Kruger Kidz™ get pretty defensive in such a situation - defensive enough to double down on blaming anyone and everyone but themselves for any failures. That puts you squarely in the firing line and makes it a lot harder to turn it into a teachable moment. It could also erode trust between you two.

 

If you're going to test him, I recommend being there for it in person - hand over the reins for a day, let him run things, let him make the mistakes with you watching. That gives him the opportunity to ask questions if he starts getting in over his head, and you can then offer support while reminding him that he said he was ready for solo work. Or, when he really makes a hash of things, you can immediately review what happened and explain that this is why you want him to have more training.

 

And if he still doesn't get it....well, I'd go with Chris' suggestion.

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 5:34 pm
(@absurveyor18548)
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@rover83 agreed… I don’t want to lose trust between us all if there’s any hope of it working out.   Unfortunately my best opportunity so far to oversee him running the show was on Friday….after a very slow start (and me wanting to get off work on time on A Friday) I assisted a lot more than I initially wanted to…. Hopefully another opportunity soon!  

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 5:52 pm
Williwaw
(@williwaw)
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You've already tested him and he isn't ready, so why do you want to hammer that point home? Have a straight up and honest conversation with him. I personally think people that over sell their abilities are a liability and if they won't level with you, at some point they are going to cost you. Offer to work with him to get him there but if he isn't willing, there you go. It's a two way road and only one to the exit. That said, have some patience with him.

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 5:58 pm

OleManRiver
(@olemanriver)
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I think rover has it.  None of us if we are honest were ready to be solo in all situations.  Start mentoring him if he is asking like rover stated let him start making decisions and let him figure out what he knows and what he doesn’t know. Thats a win win as you can focus the teaching on what he doesn’t know. You might even see some jobs or task he is perfectly comfortable with and he can go solo on those. I was sent out many times before being a crew chief on certain jobs.  And they took extra time on the ones i was not ready for to help point me in the right direction.  If its like rover said and its a personality thing you can get him where he wants to go. Know matter what he will have to be humbled a big from time to time. If its pure attitude and he doesn’t want to listen so he can learn then you have a bigger decision to make. But usually someone who is a hard worker doesn’t usually have the bad attitude. But by not letting the personality of someone who is a door knocker down and wants to plow through and keep going can get a bad attitude. Just run that horse but keep blinders on him so you maintain control. 

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 6:13 pm
(@bstrand)
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Yeah, the obvious solution seems to simply shadow him all day for a few days so you can watch him make the decisions he claims he's capable of making.

I really don't think punishing his enthusiasm by setting him up for failure is the way to handle the situation.

 
Posted : February 21, 2023 9:53 pm
fairbanksls
(@fairbanksls)
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I wouldn’t spend much time on someone who doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.  I see that as a lack of judgement. It takes a lot more than work ethic to be in a position of responsibility. If billing hourly it’s our clients who are paying for our employees and they should be getting what they are paying for.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 12:28 am
Norm
 Norm
(@norm)
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I have to certify that the work is done under my direct personal supervision. There is no choice here unless the person is certifying the work. Just a thought. 

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 5:58 am
kevin-hines
(@kevin-hines)
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We hired an E.I. that had, at one time, worked summers for a well respected surveyor a few counties east. One of our principals wanted me to give the E.I. a complete rig so he could go get some basic information on a project that couldn't get to for a few days. I had the E.I. attempt to set up a new job in the DC, attempt to set up the instrument, etc. Needless to say, but he didn't pass my scrutiny and was not allowed to handle the survey equipment, even to transport it back into the shop.

Moral of the story: Not knowing what those working under you doesn't know of their own ability, can become expensive very quick!

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 9:35 am

jitterboogie
(@jitterboogie)
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@kevin-hines 

Did you get a chance to train him?  Obviously he was only carrying lath and driving rebar for the other guy, and getting coffee probably.

 

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 9:57 am
kevin-hines
(@kevin-hines)
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@jitterboogie 

He hasn't had the time to break away from the mountain of work our E.I.'s are subjected to in order to learn how to handle an instrument. He's a good kid, and may make a decent hand on a field crew at some point, but learned real quick not to exaggerate his abilities.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 10:33 am
rover83
(@rover83)
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I wouldn’t spend much time on someone who doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.  I see that as a lack of judgement. It takes a lot more than work ethic to be in a position of responsibility. If billing hourly it’s our clients who are paying for our employees and they should be getting what they are paying for.

Serious question for all - how do we expect folks to learn if we're not teaching them?

An majority of us appear to despise formal education and "book-learning" - we point and laugh at the kids coming out of school and say "They need to learn by doing! Practical on-the-job experience is what makes a surveyor!"

But then when they don't know every last detail of the specific type of surveying work we do in whatever region of the country we are located in for whatever unique client we may be servicing, we say "Well obviously they didn't learn anything in school!"

Followed by "Why didn't they learn this stuff themselves? They should totally know what they don't know plus how to learn it all without any guidance! After all, we're paying them MONEY! That should have guaranteed they know what they are doing!"

...as if it's not our job to double-check who we are hiring, and believe that putting a mediocre salary out there will only attract the exact person with the exact skills we want.

OK, that was a little tongue-in-cheek, but in all seriousness so what if someone doesn't know what they don't know? That's how literally everyone starts out. They need guidance.

They will continue to need guidance too. I'm looking at moving into a more formal leadership role, and I sure as hell am not going to jump into that without a solid support network of those above me who can show me the ropes and correct me when I'm wrong, without judging me for not knowing....things that I don't know.

With this sort of attitude coming down from the licensed crowd, it's no wonder a lot of folks inflate their skill set and avoid asking questions. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, but at least that way they'll be able to pay the bills/feed the family for a while and possibly fake it till they make it.

Then if/when they get licensed, having garnered a random assortment of skills and patchwork knowledge because there was no consistent training or education in their career, they turn around and think, "Screw those up-and-comers! I got mine, they need to suck it up and suffer through everything I did!"

And the cycle starts all over again.

I used to think we couldn't decide whether we want to be a profession or a trade. These days I find myself wondering if we're just an exclusive social club.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 10:42 am
(@bstrand)
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@rover83

Yeah, I was gonna make a comment like 'these guys complain when they get a slack-jawed do-nothing, and they also complain when they get someone who is actually motivated, so you know what screw it, just do everything yourself...".

But you were much less rude about it.  

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 10:59 am
Williwaw
(@williwaw)
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@rover83

Yeah, I was gonna make a comment like 'these guys complain when they get a slack-jawed do-nothing, and they also complain when they get someone who is actually motivated, so you know what screw it, just do everything yourself...".

But you were much less rude about it.  

I think you might be missing the point. We all want to teach people who are motivated, because we can't do it all ourselves. It's really about attitude. How do you teach someone who comes off that they already know everything and they show resentment when they get called out. Let me illustrate. When I'm interviewing someone I like to ask them something I'm fairly certain they don't know. You will typically get two kinds of responses. One will invent an answer because they are afraid of losing face by admitting they don't know something. He's likely to get you in trouble. The second will respond, I don't know the answer, but if you give me some time to dig into it, I'll get you the answer. Do you see the difference?

 

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 11:30 am

jitterboogie
(@jitterboogie)
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@rover83 

 

PREACH BROTHER ROVER!!!

 

Amen!

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 12:17 pm
(@bstrand)
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We all want to teach people who are motivated...

The responses didn't quite come across that way prior to my post so that's why I threw the comment out there.

If guys are willing to teach then that's great.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 12:22 pm
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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My sole experience with this, fortunately, goes back to a time when I was focused on strictly engineering tasks.  Our director of engineering hired a degreed engineer who was a native of his home country in Asia.  In casual conversations with this fine fellow, it rapidly became obvious he had never been in an engineering class of any kind.  Very basic tasks, that any Freshman in Engineering classes would know, were unknown to him.  In fact, he was in awe of what could be done using these tools of science.  He was terminated within two months when the director of engineering did his own investigation and learned the diploma came from a "diploma for money" institution.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 12:25 pm
(@jon-payne)
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I'm going to generalize, but I don't think I've met a licensed surveyor or survey technician who didn't think he/she knew more than he/she did (self included).  For some it is a huge difference between known and claimed and others its a smaller deficit.  Sometimes people grow out of some of that attitude.  If the "know-it-all" in the OP is relatively young and new to the profession, I might be more understanding and try Eric's suggestions.

I've worked as a crew chief with someone who had some experience at a different company prior to joining the company I was at and it could be pretty frustrating when they knew just enough to seem reasonably proficient, but were too smart for their own good to pay attention when it was an area they did not know.

 

Side note - One thing I know I do not know.  I can NEVER spell technician correctly the first go around.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 1:41 pm
(@jon-payne)
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If billing hourly it’s our clients who are paying for our employees and they should be getting what they are paying for.

While I agree with the idea, on the job training is a portion of many service professions.  Heck even the solo licensee who gets a new data collector is 'learning' on a job when rediscovering the right icon or pull-down menu.  Just part of the business.  There is a need to balance how much time is a reasonable expectation.  I wouldn't suggest stopping and charging the client 4 hours for reading the manual, but work slowing to allow a junior member of the crew time to practice setting the instrument up is par for the course.

 
Posted : February 22, 2023 1:48 pm

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