Hello,
We just got a 1800 x 1000 foot building and am reviewing the architects plans. We've been working with the same general contractor for awhile, the work is always under pressure and the job sites are crowded, what else is new. The subs usually destroy our stakes and we get recalled, we've done our do diligence to keep this from happening. The grid lines are spaced at 30 feet along the long leg and 30 and 15 along the shorter leg. Can anyone recommend a good way to layout the grid lines...offsets....types of stakes used....anything that you do that someone else may not...your advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Paul
Put in your contract the cost to return an replace stakes is $100 per stake. Amazingly only 10 got hit out of hunreds. The GM will make sure everyone is aware of the costs.
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Normally I would do offset as agreed with the site supervisor so it is useful for them and yet away from the works of the other subs. Then again, we also make it known that coming back to set out one point is also chargeable for a days trip.
Why are you staking grid lines?
rlshound, post: 333489, member: 6800 wrote: Hello,
We just got a 1800 x 1000 foot building and am reviewing the architects plans. We've been working with the same general contractor for awhile, the work is always under pressure and the job sites are crowded, what else is new. The subs usually destroy our stakes and we get recalled, we've done our do diligence to keep this from happening. The grid lines are spaced at 30 feet along the long leg and 30 and 15 along the shorter leg. Can anyone recommend a good way to layout the grid lines...offsets....types of stakes used....anything that you do that someone else may not...your advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Paul
ASK the supervisor what grid lines they want; do they have a field guy there who can work from a basic system you put in ? If he is not a griseled vet, maybe he will accept some suggestions from you; maybe two lines forming a T or cross, or a two baseline system. That way any over-staking is by them, not by you, less chance for disagreements about re-staking, even less chance for your own mistakes,etc.
Suppose you end up putting in a baseline and then a shorter baseline at right angles to that one, like an L. Once you have that laid out, make checks off-site to the same control points you used to set them, plus to other control points that you did not use to set up the baselines.
Now throw away any radial stake out techniques. That was fine for setting your baselines or L, or T. Do it the way it was always done in the last 50 years: Occupy each station along the baselines as needed, and turn right angles (doubling them to correct for instrument angular error) and set your point at the other end of each grid line. Ideally some may fall on a nearby off-site wall as x's to they don't get wiped out. Develop your layout only as much as your super wants.
celestialpawn11, post: 333705, member: 10351 wrote: ASK the supervisor what grid lines they want; do they have a field guy there who can work from a basic system you put in ? If he is not a griseled vet, maybe he will accept some suggestions from you; maybe two lines forming a T or cross, or a two baseline system. That way any over-staking is by them, not by you, less chance for disagreements about re-staking, even less chance for your own mistakes,etc.
Suppose you end up putting in a baseline and then a shorter baseline at right angles to that one, like an L. Once you have that laid out, make checks off-site to the same control points you used to set them, plus to other control points that you did not use to set up the baselines.
Now throw away any radial stake out techniques. That was fine for setting your baselines or L, or T. Do it the way it was always done in the last 50 years: Occupy each station along the baselines as needed, and turn right angles (doubling them to correct for instrument angular error) and set your point at the other end of each grid line. Ideally some may fall on a nearby off-site wall as x's to they don't get wiped out. Develop your layout only as much as your super wants.
Forgot to mention: once the baseline T or L is in place, occupy the vertex pt of that baseline, turn good 90's on different quadrents of the instrument to correct up baseline before using the baseline. Plus listen to what these other wily vets have to say on website. They are fabulous input people.
Hey Private got down to the supply seargent and get me a box of grid squares.
celestialpawn11, post: 333705, member: 10351 wrote: ASK the supervisor what grid lines they want; do they have a field guy there who can work from a basic system you put in ? If he is not a griseled vet, maybe he will accept some suggestions from you; maybe two lines forming a T or cross, or a two baseline system. That way any over-staking is by them, not by you, less chance for disagreements about re-staking, even less chance for your own mistakes,etc.
Suppose you end up putting in a baseline and then a shorter baseline at right angles to that one, like an L. Once you have that laid out, make checks off-site to the same control points you used to set them, plus to other control points that you did not use to set up the baselines.
Now throw away any radial stake out techniques. That was fine for setting your baselines or L, or T. Do it the way it was always done in the last 50 years: Occupy each station along the baselines as needed, and turn right angles (doubling them to correct for instrument angular error) and set your point at the other end of each grid line. Ideally some may fall on a nearby off-site wall as x's to they don't get wiped out. Develop your layout only as much as your super wants.
Thanks celestialpawn for taking the time, I appreciate it...my plan was to set an L by resecting using our robot from control, first setting the two end points of each leg, then setting a 1" total station on one end, sight the other and continue setting any intermediate points along the L by using the robot and checking with the total station. Thanks for reminding me to double up when turning 90s and I always set naturals to fixed structures when possible.
Thanks again, I'll keep you posted as to how it comes out.
Mike Falk, post: 333702, member: 442 wrote: Why are you staking grid lines?
The contractor provides us with a drawing specifying the lines and walls he wants. Sometimes he wants offsets, sometimes the grid lines. Thanks...where are you going with this?
makerofmaps, post: 333973, member: 9079 wrote: Hey Private got down to the supply seargent and get me a box of grid squares.
Hey tenderfoot...ask those scouts from the other troop if they have any tentlocks
rlshound, post: 335351, member: 6800 wrote: The contractor provides us with a drawing specifying the lines and walls he wants. Sometimes he wants offsets, sometimes the grid lines. Thanks...where are you going with this?
It is a very antiquated construction method. I wonder how much value you might be able to provide if offered newer techniques.
What newer techniques could replace using grid lines as a reference during building construction?
party chef, post: 335411, member: 98 wrote: What newer techniques could replace using grid lines as a reference during building construction?
BIM to field.
http://www.trimble.com/construction/building-construction/trimblefieldlink-structures.aspx
http://mep.trimble.com/products/field-solutions/trimble-field-link-for-mep
https://www.topconpositioning.com/content/construction-layout
http://www.autodesk.com/products/bim-360-glue/features
Most large general contractors around here either currently have, or are starting up, virtual construction departments that stake out directly from a BIM construction model that they built in-house. Being able to set up anywhere on the building site, resection, and stake directly from the current, cloud based, BIM model is the way I think all large building construction will be performed within the next ten years.
To tie this in to the "lack of surveyors" thread, a large general contractor just hired the office guy who ran all my scanning projects and will be sitting for his license in the spring. I pay my guys well, but I'm never going to be able to compete on salary alone when a big GC decides to dump a truckload of money (and all the high tech toys he wants) on a guy.
I guessed the answer would be BIM, but at that point the deliverable from an outside surveyor is really just control NEZ right?
BIM is a great tool.
You don't need BIM to stake points better and smarter. e.g. radially as needed.
What is the GC using the grid lines for. Really. I haven't seen this technique in 20 years. It works and is out dated.
Mike Falk, post: 333702, member: 442 wrote: Why are you staking grid lines?
I generally do it for a fee when a contractor asks me to. The contractor I am working for now is a huge firm that isn't likely to change its ways to suit a surveyor. Others I have worked for are small and would'nt know BIM if she slapped them in the face. I'm interested in learning about alternatives but the fact is staking grid lines is the old tried and true and isn't going away for a while yet - maybe never.
Interesting discussion....thanks again
The first parking lot I did was the Mall in Longview Texas. I staked it out by contour lines and gave every contour line a different color. When finished, it never pooled and every drop of water went where planned.
The next Mall parking lot was Texarkana, Texas. I was forced to stake it out on 100ft, 50ft and 25ft grid lines, different Company and different Boss. When finished, it had pools everywhere and some water would not leave the curb lines.
It is easy for graders to follow contour or slope lines and impossible for them to raise and lower the blade to follow grid lines without GPS control.
0.02
Here's something I've done on several projects. Of course it's all dependent on site conditions. Establish and extend your long lines and use the "L" method as you mentioned. If able, have the contractor take a few scoops out with an excavator at the "L" points and pour concrete pads for you. There is always extra concrete and they can use it to make you 3 "permanent" monument pads. While it's still wet, you can drop some rebar at desired locations and place caps on them. Or let it setup, mark and drill. Having 4 is perfect but 3 will will always give you a way out in case of an emergency. I'd try to talk them into going every other column line on the short leg and every other on the long as well. We use hubs and tacks if ground permits. There have been times depending on the site where we have drilled column references and also used mag nails when there is macadam. Laying out every other keeps everyone working together and back checking each other. It's pretty easy for them to set intermediates on-line and it gives them the opportunity to tie between lines.
Mark Mayer, post: 335445, member: 424 wrote: I am working for now is a huge firm that isn't likely to change its ways to suit a surveyor
I wouldn't expect them to change it to suit a surveyor. I would expect them to change it to be more efficient and more profitable.
We are in business to help our clients be profitable, aren't we?
