scanning

Dont buy the hype, I have yet to even see a scanner being used in the field..only a few firms are doing scanning.

Yeah - seems to be hype- would love to utilize but not feasible at the moment-

Hi Beuckie,

was there too,
and was impressed by the presentations given by 'Direct Dimensions' (USA) and 'Gefos'(Czech Republic).
It's certainly a very nice tool or should I say toy.

I hear from the ones that own a scanner that it's hard to keep them running on frequent base ... most are delivering point clouds for the piping industries.
I doubt that it will boom for our daily work in infrastructure projects.

Chr.

shoot I have three and I'm a solo operator! Just kidding!!!

I love the concept and practice but can't afford the cost, or the time and energy to learn the manipulation of the point clouds!

I'm happy running ground control for the air born lidar people...

Hi Christof,
My question afterwards was : do i need to be a step ahead in the purchase of such a device as has happened to gps which every contractor and archeology company now own for themselves and from where i cannot get any workflow anymore.
Because it is pretty specialized to process the data, maybe this is the way we could reposition ourselves to be a service provider for architects... if they are interested of course.
Grtz

From what I've seen, the surveying companies that have scanning capabilities here in the U.S. fall into two categories: those that use it ancillary to their existing survey business, and those that see it as an independent business center. The latter group seem to be more successful. In fact I'm in preliminary discussions to come in as a consultant to an ENR top 100 engineering design firm to come in, review their existing scanning operations, work to refocus their business plan and perhaps do some of the post processing for them.

If I had it to do over again, when I started my company I would have focused solely on scanning; purchasing the software and renting, then leasing the hardware rather than spending all my start up capital on traditional surveying equipment.

I have heard that for every unit you need two men in the field with the equepment and at least two in the office managing the data and putting the finished product together. Looks like a very good tool for some applications, I suspect that the manufactures are attempting to train the end users of survey data to start asking for point clouds, If successful a few specialized operators who can absorb the cost of maintaining a high end staff, which over time will make the hardware and software cost seem small, will be the only ones offering the service. Don't believe it is a tool for everyone, and if you do need it for a unique project, there will be firms offering that service on a day to day or lump sum basis. I will not be buying a scanner to do rural boundary surveys.
jud.

[sarcasm]you only have 3? catch up with the times old man! any firm that does not have at least 5 is outdated![/sarcasm]

I have worked for 2 large firms in the past 12 years that offer High Definition Surveying (scanning) as a service. If I had to estimate the number of firms in the USA that offer this service, I would guess no more than 10%- these are the firms that have the capital and ability to absorb the start up cost for equipment and training to bring this service on board. Start up costs are large, and there is a HUGE benefit to properly train the employess dedicated to this type of work. There have been some successful solo operators/small business owners who have geared their business model toward this type of service and have been very successful, but the firms I am aware of are the larger firms. Typically with a large company (i.e. multiple locations and large pools of employees around the country) the scanner will travel with the operator around the country to where it is needed, and then the data is either processed at a home office, or a regional office with trained staff. It's a great tool for the right application, but the bottom line is it is just another tool in the toolbox (albeit a very cool one 😉 ).

Chuck

A drone,that's the way to go.
And it's just really cool!

Forget the instrument on the tripod or the one on the van: get airborne.

Don't compare this with GPS. It's different. I think the early adopters of GPS did figure a lot of things out and were able to capitalize as the equipment matured.

I was an early(ish) adopter of scanning equipment and have not had the time, or did not make the time, to properly market it. Because of this my (expensive) scanner just sits, costing me money. There have been projects in which it has come in handy though it is not a boundary survey tool. It is a topo, as-built survey tool.

The issue is now that the scanners are much faster and easier to use and can be quite a bit less expensive. The best thing is to figure out who your clients are and see if point cloud data works for them since that is the stumbling block. Most architects do not have the latest versions of Revit or other software that can directly work with point clouds, nor do engineers. You either find those that can, or, yes, you are forced to hire a cad guy that can do the modleing. Better yet, out-source it. It is best if all you have to do is get your scans registered. This is an area that has shown great improvement. It used to be very difficult and time consuming to register your scans, but most of the current versions of the software can stitch clouds together using common points and overlaps pretty easily and with very good accuracy. This is one thing I missed out on by adopting so early. The basic software is very expensive and so are the maintenance programs and/or new versions and the changes are big. So as time goes on, it gets easier and less expensive, so while I am still paying for my older, slower equipment, others that have been able to have success have moved on to newer faster that I find hard to compete with. What would take me hours to scan you can do now in minutes.

The best answer is to RENT at first until you feel the equipment maturing and leveling off. The newest FARO scanner looks very intriguing.

It does not take a field crew and office crew of highly trained personnel. One guy can run the scanner himself. If you need to know where you are, then you need some control already in place to work from. It is not that hard to register point clouds and even if you are going to pull out topo data yourself, that also is not hard to learn.

My experience is that there are many ways in which this could be a great tool when the price comes down some more for both the equipment and the software. It could also be used as a "value added" service for boundary work. Imagine you are setting corners and also set the scanner up to scan the structures while you are working on setting the corners. You move the scanner a few times and register it together in a few minutes back at the office. Extract the structure and plop it on the survey map for some extra money. The trade off in field time is office time in drafting. Once you get the hang of the drafting tools it goes quick and the latest versions of the software have much better automatic detection and extraction tools.

But do not be fooled by how easy the vendors make it look. The have years of practice using the same models.

It is not so much about their being interested as it is their being capable! Except for the high end firms, most do not have the latest Revit (or similar) program, which is the only one that can handle (pre-registerd) point clouds for direct modeling and feature extraction. And Revit is not cheap and has a learning curve.

The same goes for engineers and Plant engineers.

I never used an HD scanner until I started the current job 3 years ago.

We have a Leica Scanstation 2.

It has huge overhead in more ways than one.

First, the cost just to acquire the machine.
Second, the software.
Third, learning the software.
Fourth, just the volume and weight of the equipment required.
Fifth, the time it takes to set it up and get it going.

We are acquiring a new C10 which is smaller, light weight and the battery situation is vastly improved. It looks like the volume of equipment filling up the truck will be considerably less.

I think over the next 10 years scanners will become much smaller, lighter and more practical to use on most jobs. Right now I would rather just topo most things rather than run that beast.

Eventually the scanners and total stations will merge into one device; in fact, that is already happening.

Hopefully the office software improves too.

I recommend you don't outright purchase one; only the Government does something like that. The technology is advancing, getting less expensive, faster, smaller, etc. that you should plan on replacing it every year or two. In 20 years we will look back on the Scanstation 2 like we look back on that huge HP total station from the early 80s.

You are exactly right Dave. We also have the Scanstation 2 and I have gotten pretty good at getting it set up and going but doing it can be a bit of a work-out at times. The whole scanner/laptop power and network cables issue can be a real bi--h as well. I' looking for ways to make it wireless.

I wish we had the ability to upgrade to 'smaller-faster', but it will be a while. Meanwhile, I am still trying hard to find ways to use it.

A large number of surveying firms in the NY/NJ metro area have purchased at least one scanner. I know a couple of firms that have three or more.

I'd say that of the companies that have traditionally done more than just specialize in title/boundary surveying, 2/3rd of them are into scanning in one way or another.

And many clients now call looking for scans as part of the deliverable.

We have a scanner at my company. Lots of dollars, very little use. There's just not a huge demand for this service in my neck of the woods. We've done a few jobs with it and the results were impressive, but most of our clients don't know what to do with such data. Hopefully that will change in the future. It could be a really cool tool.
Maybe one company in ten has a laser scanner in our area.
Beuckie, in short, those sales people were simply lying to you in order to sell some very expensive equipment. I wouldn't buy anything from those guys. I don't mind a salesman being excited about his products, but once he starts lying, I quit buying.

The problem is with this equipment that you don't know if you'll ever have enough return from your investment; it's got great potential but i know that a total station will always pay itself back but when you're not sure that there are clients willing to pay for these services i'll hesitate to buy and my bank will also ask questions i think.
Another thing on my mind is the billing, over here i'll bill between 80 and 90euros for one hour one man total station but what are the rates for a scan that takes maybe 30 minutes in total, do i bill 50 euros or 500euros to compensate my investment?
I don't seem to find hourly rates for laserscanning in the field and post-processing. Does anybody have a clue how these are calculated?
Greetings from the land of beers!

> I don't seem to find hourly rates for laserscanning in the field and post-processing. Does anybody have a clue how these are calculated?
> Greetings from the land of beers!

Hourly will never work. Your best bet is a day rate with at least 1 day minimum charge time. We have charged anywheres from $2500 to $5000 per day. All depends on client, work environment, time frame, deliverable, etc.

Its not for every survey company. If you do just boundary it will never pay off and hardly be used. Also, you cant expect to just say "I have a scanner" and expect work to come to you. You have to go out and get it.