Received a phone call the other day from a fellow in California. Fellow has been a photogrammetric stereo compiler ("dot pusher") for over 25 years and last July got the wild hair to go into business for himself. Went and purchased $47,000 worth of hardware and software to go into the photogrammetry business. Said he hasn't gotten any work since last July and wanted my advice and counsel how to get some business.
I asked, "Since you are in California, how long have you had your license to practice photogrammetry?"
"Uh, ... what license?"
I e-mailed him the website for the California State Board of Registration for Land Surveyors and wished him good luck.
Ouch, that had to hurt.
You would think that in 25 years someone would have mentioned that to him.
> Received a phone call the other day from a fellow in California. Fellow has been a photogrammetric stereo compiler ("dot pusher") for over 25 years and last July got the wild hair to go into business for himself. Went and purchased $47,000 worth of hardware and software to go into the photogrammetry business. Said he hasn't gotten any work since last July and wanted my advice and counsel how to get some business.
>
> I asked, "Since you are in California, how long have you had your license to practice photogrammetry?"
>
> "Uh, ... what license?"
>
> I e-mailed him the website for the California State Board of Registration for Land Surveyors and wished him good luck.
Wow. Pretty much every company I know of has one photogrammetry guy they use (or it's in-house at a couple of places), or they have three that they ask for proposals from and choose one. We only really use one guy here is so cal to do all of our stuff. That is a tough business to break into without buying an existing company. Section 8775 thru 8775.3 of the LS Act in CA deals with Photogrammetry.
"Think of how stupid the average person is - and half of them are dumber than that!" - George Carlin
You kinda have to be an idiot-savant to be a stereocompiler. I did it for about 4 months and I quit, partially because I wasn't fast at it (like the savants), and partially because I could see there was a very low-hanging glass ceiling where once you were labeled as a stereocompiler you were never going to get a job doing anything else (like return to a survey crew, work towards a license, etc.)
Fascinating development to the thread
I just received a reply from the same fellow. Surprising and fascinating development:
"I have conducted an investigation regarding the "licensing of Photogrammetrists in the State of California". My investigation has revealed that there is currently no provision for granting licenses to Photogrammetrists in the State of California. The information that I obtained comes from the California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors - the official state office that regulates the activity in question. More specifically, I spoke with Julie, in the enforcement division and Mr. Ric Moore, ric.moore@dca.ca.gov (916-263-2230), the Staff Land Surveyor. Mr. Moore informed me that the licensure of Photogrammetrists was implemented in the 1970's and that there were perhaps less than 200 individuals who earned the title of licensed Photogrammetrists. To this day there are about 3 individuals who are considered "active licensed Photogrammetrists" in the State of California according to Mr. Moore. It is obvious that the original intent to grant licenses to Photogrammetrists was to distinguish the practice from that of Land Surveyors and Professional Engineers and to discourage chicanery. In modern day California, the credentials of a Professional Engineer and/or Professional Land Surveyor are the tools used to validate photogrammetrically compiled aerial topographies. Regarding my involvement and my companies' desire to conduct business as a photogrammetric mapping entity in the State of California, I am not in violation of state laws or regulations so long as I operate in conjunction with a Professional Land Surveyor or a Professional Engineer. Although, I must be responsible for my own errors and omissions, the PE or PLS is ultimately responsible for signing and placing a stamp on the map."
Interesting, and I did not know that.
Fascinating development to the thread
Very interesting. Learn something new every day around this place.
Fascinating development to the thread
> I am not in violation of state laws or regulations so long as I operate in conjunction with a Professional Land Surveyor or a Professional Engineer
That says, to me, the guy is going to buy signatures.
Fascinating development to the thread
What I read in the statutes says "It isn't going to float with the board". He needs to have a license to run a photogrammetry business. The only time a RCE or a LS gets called in is for ground control or for boundaries.
IMHO
Fascinating development to the thread
> "Regarding my involvement and my companies' desire to conduct business as a photogrammetric mapping entity in the State of California, I am not in violation of state laws or regulations so long as I operate in conjunction with a Professional Land Surveyor or a Professional Engineer."
If you replace "in conjunction with" with "under the responsible charge of," then the above statement is true. See BPELS Memorandum dated March 14, 1997 for details.
Someone must be in responsible charge
I have no idea how someone can be in responsible charge without being licensed. Most photogrammetists ARE licensed land surveyors. This is the avenue generally taken to be able to offer this service in CA.
Jim
That's a spicy meatball. Thanks for the opinion letter
Someone must be in responsible charge
> I have no idea how someone can be in responsible charge without being licensed.
You have to be licensed in order to be in responsible charge. As long as a photogrammetrist is performing services under the responsible charge of a licensee, no problem.
> Most photogrammetists ARE licensed land surveyors.
This hasn't been my experience. I've only worked with a few of them, but none has been licensed.
Someone must be in responsible charge
Well no problem, except, you have to sign for the non licensed sub-consultant. That would not be me doing the signing.Your board opinion letter states clearly the circumstances under which a non-preparing licensee CAN SIGN FOR THE NON LICENSED PREPARING SUB-CONSULTANT......TOO MUCH LIABILITY FOR ME... SO I WILL STICK WITH THE LICENSED LAND SURVEYOR AND/OR ENGINEER PHOTOGRAMMETRIST....
QUALITY IN QUALITY OUT
Cliff--Louisiana?
Cliff, is there a requirement for a photogrammetrist to be licensed in Louisiana? I can't find one. Is the georeferencing of maps and interpretation of aerial photographs restricted? Is an PE/PLS authorized to do this kind of work? What about a simple geographer? This all has always seemed vague to me here in Louisiana.
Someone must be in responsible charge
That's been my experience as well. I have worked with several during the time I've been in CA, and only two that I know of have an LS on staff, and even they put the ultimate liability back on the LS or CE ordering the mapping by stating that it is up to the LS or CE to verify the accuracy of the map.
Even so, I prefer to use a company with an LS in charge of the mapping. In my experience, more care has been taken to ensure accuracy.
okay let me rephrase
The photogrammetrists that I have worked with have all been licensed land surveyors. I would not hire a firm that does not have a land surveyor/engineer in responsible charge of the work they prepare. So this warps my view of the available service providers,into thinking there are more licensees performing the work than may in fact be the case.
okay let me rephrase
Some of the best photogrammetrists in the country, those of which I have put huge trust in for photogrammetric services do not have registered engineers or land surveyors working for them. I see no need for it unless licensure in a state calls for it. Gulf Coast Aerial Mapping in Baton Rouge is one heck of a fine photogrammetry firm, and I have used them on many projects for the last 34 years--very successfully with top quality work.
I took photogrammetry in my BS in civil, and I learned a good bit, but nothing I had in college at that time would educate me to the extent that I as a PE or LS would be able to meet the credentials of a "certified" photogrammetrist in all aspects. I must be missing something. I can see where caution would be required if they are using photogrammetry to try to establish boundary lines--I guess.
okay let me rephrase
Frank, there is no such requirement under current or past Louisiana laws. The only requirement for a license to practice surveying in Louisiana is for Boundary Surveying. Some companies have claimed that they could determine boundaries with aerial photography by assuming that an apparent boundary line is the same as a physically retraced boundary line. As far as I know, such claims have never ever been proven. Some decades ago, one idiot that claimed that at an annual LSPS Convention actually got chased out of the lecture hall!
Some 15-20 years ago, there was a movement from a member of the LAPELS board to license Photogrammetrists as Land Surveyors, but it was shot down by competing Photogrammetrists that objected to the movement promulgated by the board member ... since he was also President of a Land Surveying and Photogrammetric Mapping corporation.
It's pretty easy for a Registered Professional Engineer and/or a Registered Professional Land Surveyor to stamp a photogrammetric work product by performing a standard field check. However, somebody has to pay for the field check. Field checks are rarely done unless specified in the project proposal and included in the anticipated charges by the owner.
Licensing Photogrammetrists is becoming a trend in recent years ... Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, Washington State I believe now so license.
okay let me rephrase
> Licensing Photogrammetrists is becoming a trend in recent years ... Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, Washington State I believe now so license.
Oregon has a photogrammetry license, as of about 4 ? yrs ago. Licensed Surveyors can also practice photogrammetry in Oregon.
